TOPIC: New HA filler claiming to last up to 5 years

by chance I just read mato23\'s description of Belotero and he used the \"padded Dick\" description. When i\'m 100 percent Erect it feels like a rock... personally i don\'t want anything that feels like padding, but thats me.

aleksk wrote: @think Also, let\'s not lose perspective here. You may feel like a rock when hard, but you\'re CUT. \'mato\' or I are not. Let me go back to my most basic point under 1) above.

@aleksk I\'m not losing perspective of anything, before you brought up uncut guys I was specifically talking about voluma, and how it\'s expensive and not ideal for some guys--and I gave example of two guys who were also CUT and not satisfied with it.

Anyway, glad you broke your silence, hope you have some good ideas to contribute. They seem to be needed.

[I had Teosyal Ultra Deep with a very experienced, highly-trained injector (easily verifiable for those who care to verify it). Rather than hard wood, it felt like a sponge filled with water. I literally couldn\'t have any penetrative sex unless a lot of lube was involved, and sometimes not even then.

Was it noticeable? Absolutely. It took about 4 or 5 sessions of spot-adding and spot dissolving and ultimately dissolving most of it to get it to a stage where it was not really noticeable. I was lucky I had an experienced, very professional and caring doctor so somehow I pulled through all this. But by that time the gains were minimal. It was not in my head, I had sex partners asking me why my Dick \'looks like that\'. Good luck maintaining Erection after a question like that.]

Sorry but I have to ask...

1. how certain are you it was Teoysal Ultra Deep?
Because that does not sound correct - it is painfully hard for a month before integrating and then remains very firm.

2. Why all the dissolving and reinjecting - dissolving can weaken the filler that is not completely cleared (making it mushier).
Hyalase generates a lot of swelling lasting for weeks and sometimes months in some patients (could this have contributed to the feeling). Multiple sessions can leave residual swelling for a long time.
I stand by the comment that Teoysal Ultra Deep is very firm, so much so that we don\'t allow patients to take more than 2-4ml at a time. 2 ml is '530 / $700 for reference. It has a tendency to pool together so we have spread it finely (1 or 2 ml right / left side).

3. How was it injected, between dartos and bucks?

[1. How it feels has to do a lot with whether someone is Circumcised or not and for those that are not, how tight the skin naturally is.]

This is more relevant if injected superficially, filler is less likely in the Foreskin region if using cannula deep to dartos.

[For the vast majority of uncut men, getting good result is a huge challenge.]

Why? Filler migration to the Foreskin area? Please expand on this.
We used to get this sometimes but now have ways to prevent it. I do not see it as being any more difficult but I am interested to know more. What is it about the uncut penis specifically, I don\'t follow.

[In fact, fillers designed to attract as little water as possible, like the Belotero type used under the eyes, might be much more suitable in this respect.]
Teoysal Kiss is a good candidate in this respect, but these fillers are very soft and do not last very long, even under the eye. In the penis the lifespan is going to be less.

Do you have a link to the thread explain the details of your procedure, how was the HA injected and by whom... curious. Thanks.

Patients could use Teoysal Ultra Deep which is a very hard HA. I think a few patients from this forum have tried it though Androfill, but, it is hard to dissolve away (which negates the whole point of HA) and can only be injected a few ml at a time, and it is quite painful for up to 1 month (it wants to hold its shape).

Androfill wrote: For HA yes. From the first 1,000 we had:
- 7 granuloma
- 5 infections
- 1 allergic reaction
- 2 significant filler migrations

Thanks for the info!

Androfill wrote: It should not be squishy, if it is then it might not have been the right HA, or the filler injection or aftercare was poor.

Well, costa said it was, and you guys did his. He had it dissolved. The report of squishiness is \"not infrequent\" from all the cases I\'ve read about, and guys I personally communicated with who had it. And this is voluma. This was also the major complaint in the original korean HA study. Dunno about ultra deep. Why are so many practices using voluma if this is so good?

Androfill wrote: No problems from Ellanse yet but the sample size is tiny. At least 100 cases in a sample over 2-3 years... would that be reasonable.

Thanks again for the info. Combined with Dr oats almost 2 years experience plus morganster 7 months, so far so good it seems. I hope it continues to go this way, because I believe like @chester that it is superior in terms long lasting and feeling 100 percent natural when Flaccid and Erect.

I think there is more to it than safety profile (where HA is safer) or suitability for penis enlargement (where PMMA/Ellanse are better). You also have to combine the right clinic/Dr with the product. I don\'t think Androfill is the right place to get a longer term or permanent filler. That\'s not a slight on Androfill or Dr Horn, but I\'m simply pointing out that with a non reversible product you need to to spend much more time with the patient and though it\'s technically non surgical, you pretty much go into theater. When I had PMMA, it was a 2 hour appointment. I had to get into a surgical gown, you get local anesthetic, Dr C has an assistant and it\'s done in a surgical suite. I think it\'s a similar situation with Dr Oates. It\'s because they have to get it right as the stakes are higher. They spend years honing their techniques. Whilst HA is just a case of applying some emla cream, then jumping on the table in a office and being done in 10 mins. If it doesn\'t go well it can easily be fixed. So the different types of products are more suitable to different business models. If you mix the the wrong product with the wrong business you end up with the type of Ellanse results you see posted on Moorgates website.

Well considered and I agree with a few points including the last point.

Regardless of how well the Ellanse is placed (the skill of the doctor), it still moves around for a few days once the patient gets home. What the patient does afterwards is important to the final result and is out of the hands of the doctor, aside from providing adequate instructions.

I would rather have a reversible product when the nature of the procedure is that it relies quite heavily on the patient, back at home.

Below is a link to the technique preferred by Dr Horn. It takes around 20 minutes including local anaesthetic block.

I suspect it is very similar to the procedure carried out by Dr C or Dr Oates but I have not seen videos of their procedures.
If it differs, what is the crucial difference (there is always the possibility to improve)?



- Are any of these aspects materially contributing to a better / more even result? Or put another way, what is missing from the Androfill procedure in the Youtube link above that is done by Dr C or Dr Oates. Are their procedures filmed and put online anywhere?

Getting the filler evenly into the correct layer is not especially difficult and I don\'t believe there is a special skill or technique to it (but please feel free to disagree).
The filler can/will move around after the procedure regardless of how well is it placed in this layer, and as long as it is placed evenly, it is less important to the final result than what happens after the patient leaves the clinic.

You can\'t use that basic \"sausage filler\" technique with permanent or long term fillers! Otherwsie you end up with result like those on the Moorgate website. Why do you think so many of Dr N\'s patients don\'t look so great? She works alone, use one entry point and just molds the stuff. I know Dr Oates has his own technique that can\'t speak of, but Dr C divides the penis into 6 sections and uses a injection gun to more accurately measure the amount of filler being injected at each point. It\'s a much longer and more considered process than what is shown in the video above. It involves several entry points, requires an assistant and rolling instruments to smooth as he works. It\'s really not a case of making a hole, pumping it in and then molding it into place with hands.

Androfill wrote: Getting the filler evenly into the correct layer is not especially difficult and I don\'t believe there is a special skill or technique to it (but please feel free to disagree).

Dr. C believes there is, and gave it a name (EIT):

The senior author has presented this technique in medical meetings under the name Exact Implantation Technology (EIT). Using the EIT, the Buck fascia is easily identi?ed, and the PMMA suspension is deposited overlying the Buck fasciaat the level of the deep Dartos fascia. The PMMA suspension injected overlying the Buck fascia leaves the super?cial Dartos fascia untouched, and the alveolar gliding space is preserved, maintaining the gliding of the skinover the implant or of the implant over the Buck fascia.

from here:https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305664356_Penile_Girth_Enhancement_With_Polymethylmethacrylate-Based_Soft_Tissue_Fillers

biggy.

It would be nice to see videos of both Dr O and C procedures.

[Dr C divides the penis into 6 sections and uses a injection gun to more accurately measure the amount of filler being injected at each point.]

You can be as precise as you like placing the filler, however, it is a liquid and will diffuse around the layer it is injected into until it integrates.
No amount of precision when placing the filler can make up for the fact that it moves around for a few days on its own (assisted by nocturnal Erection, gravity, diffusion).
So this does not ring true to me that being super-precise when injecting filler into the layer means it will stay in place.

Regarding Moorgate, they are doing a lot of Ellanse injecting the filler subcutaneously. We have fix-up cases from Moorgate regarding HA frequently, but no calls regarding bad Ellanse results.

So he\'s switched to using a cannula and has now started using two entry points. You could say his technique is evolving! He wouldn\'t change things for a laugh, he\'s doing it to get better results. Technique and experience with the particular filler the Dr is using is clearly very important. With longer lasting or permanent fillers it\'s even more important than with reversible HA fillers.

Yes, two entry points either side of the midline. It should be sufficient because the filler can diffuse through the layer although some areas may be difficult to reach. One entry point does not sound sufficient to get through both the left and right sides. How Ellanse is being marketed in the UK is a bit of a worry.

[You\'re giving one single example, but you must have stats on how many patients you treated in total, and how many had this issue? I have not heard this before, and would like to know the stats. Everything has risk, but people decide to proceed or not based on statistics, not a single anecdotal case. If that were the case, people would read darkstaff\'s pmma experience and nobody would have it done!]

For HA yes. From the first 1,000 we had:
- 7 granuloma
- 5 infections
- 1 allergic reaction
- 2 significant filler migrations

We have subsequently had 2 more infections and one vascular occlusion where filler pressed into the blood vessel reducing the blood from outside the blood vessel and needed to be dissolved. Note: not intravascular occlusion.

[Yes, but he still does the procedure if patients request it, and has had good results (as has Dr Oats). Does he tell patients in advance that if something goes wrong he can\'t do anything? Or does he discuss with them what the specific odds are and actually have a some plan to treat possible outcomes?]

Yes so far the results are good. Dr Horn has refused a lot of patients Ellanse (some from this forum) and only agrees to go ahead if he thinks they fully understand the difference and have the capacity to make that decision (mentally stable, clearly understand the risk, preferably a repeat patient who has had HA before so they are familiar with the general aftercare back at home).

[Everyone knows that, but you\'re on a forum where for years guys are opting for pmma (which is permanent) on a daily basis, based on a long history of good and some negative outcomes.]

All the senior board members understand well, but in the UK because of recent BBC \'docu-torials\' (documentary/advertising lets say), there are many new penis filler patients probably coming onto this board, who don\'t understand the difference.

[Saying HA is safer is not going to convince a lot of guys to opt for it after doing years of research, and realizing that many guys spend a lot of money on HA and have it dissolved because it\'s \"squishy\" and feels like a \"padded dick\" ...]

It should not be squishy, if it is then it might not have been the right HA, or the filler injection or aftercare was poor. I know for example that Teoysal Ultra Deep is like wood.

[yes there are some lucky guys who are OK with HA]

How do you explain this? I think the unhappy ones might have had the wrong filler, or injected badly, or bad aftercare. I think Voluma or another firm HA filler injected with the method in the video above is not squishy at all when erect.

[but there are a lot of guys who are not, and in some locations guys are paying 10K USD for 15 ml ... which last 1.5 years, and which they may not be satisfied with.]

$10k ('8,000) for 15 ml is about 2.5x the price in the UK for 15ml. I think Voluma and other HA fillers are very expensive for doctors to purchase in USA.[As long as there are alternatives like pmma or ellanse that last longer and feel more natural (I take this as confirmed), then people will opt for these over HA unless it is shown by reported / documented cases (with pics), clinical studies, and other real data that it\'s not worth the risk. Note that in Gary Alter\'s editorial comment on the pmma study, his main concern was what may happen \"a decade\" down the road ... at least for ellanse that\'s not a concern.]

Gary Alter\'s comments are quite bad. 50% irregularities - it depends on how bad the irregularities are. But again, with a big assumption that dermal fillers (HA/Ellanse/PMMA) have a similar propensity for irregularity, 4 years and no ability to dissolve is quite a problem?

[

www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(16)30328-9/abstractI\'m not arguing there is no risk, I\'m just asking you to contribute actual data and stats on those risks, if you have them.]Dr Horn is working on an article for a peer-reviewed journal.

Coming just from me, what I can tell you that I see from HA is, infection (very rare), granuloma (very rare), little bits of stray filler (maybe 5% of cases so quite common) (aside from the 2 major filler migrations, 1 caused the patient having anal sex 2 days after HA injection). No problems from Ellanse yet but the sample size is tiny. At least 100 cases in a sample over 2-3 years... would that be reasonable.

Think.
[The only complication of Nodule formation and other irregularities can be overcome by an improved injection technique and better postimplantation care.]

It would be the postimplantation care (moulding) rather than the injection technique. A layer is being filled with a liquid that can move around until it stabilises. It is not the same as having filler in the cheeks where it will near enough stay in the same spot unless manipulated away from that spot.