TOPIC: Considering Belladerm--please advise

richard wrote: I understand your point of view and agree with you. My point was when your making an important medical decision you need to research your medical facts. Because so much plays in to the personality of the person and how they react to some thing. Many times whether your talking about , cancer, plastic, surgery,etc, it is negative people who take the time to post. I had the experience w my prostrate cancer and found three fourths what I read was a bunch of crap.'

In my experience of researching PE, which is pretty vast, I can tell you that other peoples opinions and views are an invaluable resource. Medical facts can be translated or presented in different ways, so third party perspective is therefore incredibly helpful. But aside from that, there isn\'t exactly much in the way of useful information regarding PE procedures in the medical literature, so the opinions, views and experiences of others should be a key part of the decision making process.

Max Your exactly correct.. Most of the people that speak against Belladerm do not really understand why it replaced Alloderm. Also most of not all of these people have never met with Dr and learned what and why his industry as changed from early fat injections...You have to filer out people that have THEIR own ideas what is right and wrong and have not done anything but read articles that are PRO their favorite method... It is very good to do you home work.. Richard

Maximus wrote: On the contrary, I\'m trying to do my homework

Max

richard wrote: Thanks so much for your reply. What is the cost of three PMMA treatments..This site is great for the people who learn from it.. No one knows the long term affect of any process.I sorry your thoughts are so negative in respect to any process. Money is not issue with most people on his site. I am not here to put any process down and as i have stated my Belladerm is just fine and I will support any person that feels that Belladerm is the way they wish to go. I would hope you state positive and negative issues with all different processes and support the peoples choices rather then continue to state negative issues such as Soma..Please looking at his issues after he went on to PMMA, along with him losing size( which he explains why he did) I will never say Rubbish to anything you state.. I will support all members... thanks so much... Lets not get heated comments as they are not helping people make their decisions...

I don\'t mean to speak on behalf of Hoddle, but I\'m sure he\'d agree that being critical isn\'t necessarily being negative.
There is a lot of sensitivity with this topic. You have Belladerm inside your penis, it may not be easy reading about the possibility that your grafts will diminish, or that you run the risk of future complications. It is no different than the many men who have had PMMA injected into their penises, logging on to read about what could happen to their Dick in 5-10 years. But it is important that this kind of information is shared in the open. If not for Hoddle\'s advocacy of \"PE abstinence,\" I suspect this forum would have an even heavier bias for PMMA, etc.
Besides, the balance of the Alloderm/Belladerm topic on this forum is remarkably balanced (relative to other procedures). You have had the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Thanks Hoddle, I appreciate the thorough response, especially the summary of historical information about the extent of absorption experienced by others. Even though I\'ve spent hours reading old posts, I wasn\'t aware that the rapid absorption was so common. Rosenthal did indirectly indicate to me that absorption occurs and that\'s why he switched to Belladerm.

By the way, while I appreciate your concern, I\'m definitely not trying to convince myself that it\'s a good idea to move forward with surgery. On the contrary, I\'m trying to do my homework and find reasons not to.

Max

richard wrote: If you had a micro penis that made having sex difficult or were suffering from truly debilitating self esteem issues because of your penis, then there is a good argument that it is worth the risk. But in your case, don\'t you have too much to lose. I understand how you feel and really meant it when I said I\'d be delighted if there was a consistently effective and safe way to enlarge the penis, as it would change my life. But there just isn\'t. Because you so badly want a bigger penis it sounds like you are trying to convince yourself that it\'s a good decision to have it done, when really you know it isn\'t. I know what it\'s like as I\'ve done it myself. Voices of reason such as mine are probably incredibly irritating and I know when i was researching enlargement options I did my best to filter them out.
THE ABOVE POST IS TOTALLY INCORRECT... The first sentence says \"IF YOU...\" AND HIS RAGE AND DISORIENTED MIND TURNS THE REST OF THE PARAGRAPH INTO FACTUAL ABOUT ME,,, Such a positive leader.. Such a shame of one of our leaders to do....

Richard, you\'ll need to settle down friend. Hoddle clearly quoted Maximus and was clearly responding to Maximus. He didn\'t once cite you by name or your specific situation. I understand these procedures can be sensitive topics, but we mustn\'t get carried away.
And a lot of what he said was valid, but I guess we\'ll have to agree to disagree.

Thanks so much for your reply. What is the cost of three PMMA treatments..This site is great for the people who learn from it.. No one knows the long term affect of any process.I sorry your thoughts are so negative in respect to any process. Money is not issue with most people on his site. I am not here to put any process down and as i have stated my Belladerm is just fine and I will support any person that feels that Belladerm is the way they wish to go. I would hope you state positive and negative issues with all different processes and support the peoples choices rather then continue to state negative issues such as Soma..Please looking at his issues after he went on to PMMA, along with him losing size( which he explains why he did) I will never say Rubbish to anything you state.. I will support all members... thanks so much... Lets not get heated comments as they are not helping people make their decisions...

Maximus wrote: Just for the sake of discussion...

I fully agree with the comments that PE surgery carries significant risk and there have been many reports of serious problems (especially FFT and Ellist implant). On the other hand, I\'ve heard of more positive than negative reports (albeit few overall) on Rosenthal and Belladerm.

What if he doesn\'t publish his results simply because he doesn\'t need to? If he averages 6 surgeries per week at $10K, why advertise? In fact, publication of successful results may encourage other docs to jump on the bandwagon. The default answer seems to be that docs don\'t publish PE surgery outcomes because of the negative aspects, however I wonder if it\'s reasonable think about it from the opposite perspective.

Not suggesting this is what I believe, just curious about what others think of the idea.

Max

How many people on this site do we know who have had surgery with Rosenthal? I\'d say roughly 10 and not many long term cases. Rondo I think is the longest and his graft started to decline after 8 years, though he was very happy with it. Smartman and his friend Silicone Disaster both saw their grafts from Rosenthal fully absorb in less than a year. Yardstick saw his graft virtually fully absorb in less than a year. Soma went from 6.1\" to 5.8\" in the first year. This year he\'s obviously lost a similar amount as after 2 PMMA treatments he\'s 6\". So how long will it be until his graft fully absorbs? Nomad had problems with his first surgery and had to have the grafts removed. He then hinted at problems with the new graft, but deleted his posts. In fact other than Kingpol (sp?) do we know of any longer term Rosenthal patients who haven\'t seen their graft absorb having had the surgery for more than 2 years?
I don\'t have a problem with the guy, but these grafts don\'t have a great track record. I\'ve been following the PE industry for years and if dermal matrix grafts really were the answer I\'d be delighted. If there really was a safe and consistent way to enlarge the penis, by simply grafting donor tissue, it would be amazing news, but there isn\'t and the reason others aren\'t doing it isn\'t because Rosenthal hasn\'t published his brilliant results.
In other areas of plastic surgery these grafts are often described as semi permanent and expected to last between 2 and 10 years. There will be cases that last longer than 10 years and as we\'ve seen with our members here, cases that last last less than 2 years. Rosenthal saying they are permanent is a bit misleading in my opinion. In some applications (other areas of the body) they might be, but clearly not the penis.
When you consider the very real risks of infection, shortening, curvature and loss of sensitivity, then you have to ask is it worth the risk for a surgery that on average will last about 5 years? As you say it costs $10,000 and unless the members of this forum and numerous plastic surgeons are lying, it isn\'t permanent and of course there are serious risks involved with surgery.
If you had a micro penis that made having sex difficult or were suffering from truly debilitating self esteem issues because of your penis, then there is a good argument that it is worth the risk. But in your case, don\'t you have too much to lose. I understand how you feel and really meant it when I said I\'d be delighted if there was a consistently effective and safe way to enlarge the penis, as it would change my life. But there just isn\'t. Because you so badly want a bigger penis it sounds like you are trying to convince yourself that it\'s a good decision to have it done, when really you know it isn\'t. I know what it\'s like as I\'ve done it myself. Voices of reason such as mine are probably incredibly irritating and I know when i was researching enlargement options I did my best to filter them out.

Richard your next post is post 69, don\'t disappoint.

I had a business for 30 years and yes did run ads.. For 5 of our 30 years.. After that we survived by word of mouth which is the best way to advertise... Dr R is a progressive doctor. Just running ads does not give anyone a positive attitude with getting involved. Word of mouth is by far the best for many reasons...

Just for the sake of discussion...

I fully agree with the comments that PE surgery carries significant risk and there have been many reports of serious problems (especially FFT and Ellist implant). On the other hand, I\'ve heard of more positive than negative reports (albeit few overall) on Rosenthal and Belladerm.

What if he doesn\'t publish his results simply because he doesn\'t need to? If he averages 6 surgeries per week at $10K, why advertise? In fact, publication of successful results may encourage other docs to jump on the bandwagon. The default answer seems to be that docs don\'t publish PE surgery outcomes because of the negative aspects, however I wonder if it\'s reasonable think about it from the opposite perspective.

Not suggesting this is what I believe, just curious about what others think of the idea.

Max

Mm Your last post is very correct.. With the number of people I have met either in Dr Rosenthal\'s office and on the Internet they are very happy with their results..I investigated the different methods and read most if not all posts.. Any surgery, and injections of PMMA may cause long term problems...I have posted the positive results that I have here.But the majority of this site are PMMA people which if fine with me and I would never speak against it.. It just did not meet my criteria. thanks

richard wrote: I understand your point of view and agree with you. My point was when your making an important medical decision you need to research your medical facts. Because so much plays in to the personality of the person and how they react to some thing. Many times whether your talking about , cancer, plastic, surgery,etc, it is negative people who take the time to post. I had the experience w my prostrate cancer and found three fourths what I read was a bunch of crap.'

I agree with some of what you say Richard, but the fact of the matter is your successful case is an exception rather than the norm.
PE is still at its pioneering stages and when we research, we are left with the option of taking what the doctor says at face value or message boards such as this to get first hand experience reports. Finding an unbiased, 3rd party report on the outcome of a statistically significant amount of PE surgeries (for any doctor) is basically impossible because most of the doctors don\'t want the world to know the failure rate.

Could you imagine if a prospective patient of the implant doctor (Dr. Elist) only relied on
the literature on the Internet about the implant (written by Dr. Elist himself) or his face-to-face hard sell consultation with the good doctor to make his decision, without paying attention to the countless horror stories that have come out on this board and others?
Would you consider that an informed decision?