PhalloBoards - An Online Community to Discuss Penile Girth Enhancement

I am a board-certified urologist who trained at UCLA and currently practices sexual and rejuvenative medicine for men in San Ramon, California. I was a pioneer in Surgical Robotics, Greenlight Laser and MRI prostate biopsy and was the Chief of Urology at John Muir Hospital and Hill Physicians from 2012-2018. I have been voted a Top Urologist in the SF Bay Area (SF Magazine) 2014-2023.

I attended Brown University as an undergraduate and Vanderbilt for Medical School and received a Howard Hughes Medical Institute Research Award for my year of transplantation immunology research at Harvard Medical School. I trained in general surgery for two years and urologic surgery for four additional years at the UCLA Departments of Surgery and Urology.

Despite my pedigree, I am a maverick who likes to practice at the cutting edge of medicine and create new knowledge. As compared to other medical specialties, sexual medicine lacks funding for research and is filled with misinformation. Over the years, I have seen dozens of men adversely affected by penile enhancement procedures and surgeries. So I created the P-Long Study P-Long Study to determine if a combination of PRP, traction, suction and nitric oxide boosting supplements could achieve penile enhancement naturally without fillers or surgery.

When the covid pandemic forced me to close my office for 3 months, I wrote The 21st Century Man (thetwentyfirstcenturyman.com), which has won five national book awards for non-fiction, health and men’s health. I am a strong advocate of men’s health, and have appeared on The Doctors’ Show and dozens of Podcasts and Webcasts to discuss relevant topics. To improve men’s sexual health and quality of life, I perform clinical research on shockwave therapy, PRP, Peyronie’s Disease, muscle building and erectile dysfunction.

My office in Northern California (brandeismd.com) is at the leading edge of male rejuvenation and sexual medicine, and I am the chief medical officer of AFFIRM Science which creates supplements based on the most recent scientific data (AFFIRMScience.com), including AFFIRM, PreLONG, SupporT, and SPUNK.

I am a member in good standing of the American Urologic Association, Sexual Medicine Society of North America, and The International Society of Sexual Medicine. I am happy to be a member of the PhalloBoard community and bring a new perspective to penile enhancement.

In my pursuit of finding quality, vetted options for my readership, I came across a Protocol Enhancement that suggests gains in length and girth through a method that doesn't require filler injections or surgery. A Board Certified Urologist approached me regarding a protocol which he's backed with a Study involving the use of certain supplements, PRP, and a traction device to achieve gains over the course of 6 months.

As my username implies, I was skeptical at first, but then I realized I knew of many men who achieved gains using traction devices without the aid of medical supplements. With this in mind, I concluded it would be reasonably plausible that this approach may expedite and/or enhance the traction process. I myself may consider trying this protocol later this year as I still seek some length.

I believe providing a natural or organic alternative for men who are on the fence about surgery or injections makes sense. This could be an effective solution for men who would prefer NOT to have work done down there.

His name is Dr. Brandeis and he's practices out of Northern California. Below is the article he submitted pertaining to his P-Long Protocol:

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Welcome to the board BrandeisMD! It's always good to see more providers and more research being done in this field. A couple questions:

1) Can men who've had fillers still perform this protocol?

2) Can you explain more about how the measurements were taken? The website says: "Penile length and girth measurements were obtained using at-home photography of an erect penis with maximal tumescence. Measurements were obtained at baseline and at monthly intervals x 6 months." Were these photos taken with a ruler? Was a computer program used to estimate the length? Were measurements bone pressed or non? Was the erection angle relative to the body consistent? An erection pointed downward will measure longer than one that's perpendicular. How do you know the photos were taken at maximal tumescence? Is it possible what appears to be an increase in length was actually just stronger erections?

3) Phallosan and RestoreX have both published studies showing similar gains over a six month treatment without the use of PRP or NO boosters. Why do the researchers believe their protocol is more effective?

4) Has use beyond six months been studied?

5) What is the cost?

https://p-long.com
https://brandeismd.com
Contact Form (Website)


Dr. Judson Brandeis
Urology


Services of Interest to PhalloBoard Members:
The P-Long Protocol: The first and only clinically proven protocol to naturally increase the size of your manhood without surgery or cosmetic fillers. Based on the six-month results of the P-Long Study, healthy men gained almost a full inch of erect penile length (on average) and almost half an inch in girth. Results will vary based on a number of factors.


Location:
100 Park Place Ste 140
San Ramon, CA 94583


Other Forms of Contact:
Phone: 925-255-7867
Email: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

I think it def improves their credibility the fact they are accepting your feedback. Any guy who does their research will learn that getting filler injected into the penis is generally in it's infancy compared to other procedures throughout the body. I think a stronger selling point for clinics is the doctors skill with a needle/cannula. How skilled they are and their approach to placing the PMMA. In the end, that's what guys are most worried about. What is their approach and why. Why is their approach the best for getting the best aesthetic outcome. I would encourage Dr. Nanda ,on their Bellafill page, explain why my penis will be safe in his hands. I think those things are more important than touting the benefits. That's what would keep a local from flying somewhere. I would have no problem choosing the best dermatologist I could find in my city to get fillers injected in the face. Not even the best, top 15 I think would be fine in a large city. Because there are more than 100 options for clinics in big cities for facial filler, it's a common thing.

You don't have to say much more than it makes your penis thicker, lasts a long time, in this case permanent, and that it's firmer than HA. Most guys are already sold on that. If I was a local, I would want Dr. Nanda to explain why I should go to him instead of Dr. Carney other than the fact I wouldn't have to fly somewhere.

Hyperbol wrote: Jiva Med Spa advertises Bellafill as increasing firmness and length which is a lie. They also claim Bellafill improves erectile dysfunction and sensitivity. Both lies. What doctor is injecting you at Jiva Med Spa? The website I'm looking at doesn't tell you. I'm assuming it's Dr. Nanda? They just say he interacts with all the patients.

You really shouldn't factor in convenience of location when considering this procedure. Doctors don't go to school for this. You're going to be getting permanent microspheres injected into your penis. A short plane flight is the last thing that should be an issue.

Not all true @Hyperbol . Bellafill (PMMA) does & can increase the firmness of your shaft skin. Flaccid length can improve with dermal fillers. You already know this.

Looking at Jiva Med Spa's site, it mentions the use of Gainswave & P-Shot (among other things) for erectile dysfunction, not Bellafill alone. Whether those devices & therapies work are for another topic, but I don't believe after having spoken to Dr. Nanda that he believes Bellafill alone cures ED.

There may be some bullet-points on their site that may give this impression that Bellafill cures ED, but I've spoken with them to clarify and they intend on correcting it. It's a brand new site for their girth enhancement & erection quality services, and I've forwarded them quality control suggestions. They've been strongly recommended to me by the same people who recommended Dr. Rupeka, and they are one more option our readership has for Bellafill PMMA at competitive rates.

A location's convenience should absolutely factor in your decision-making. Would you rather make a 200 mile trip to get multiple rounds or a 2,000 mile trip? Definitely not the only reason to choose a Clinic, but definitely something you can't dismiss either.

Hyperbol, you're a veteran poster, if you are going to make claims that these folks are lying, then you really ought to ask more questions first, especially if you know I only bring on credible Sponsors.

jaumzaum wrote: Hello guys.
I want to know if anyone here already tried or is willing to try using Anti-LOX medications with a vacuum pump or penile traction device?
There was a very promising study, published in 2018, in which a Anti-LOX medication, combined with a vacuum device, was applied in mice for 4 weeks. The penis of the mice increased 17% (that would be human equivalent to 2,5 cm in one month!). The link is here: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7523611/
The compound they used was beta-aminopropionitrile (or BAPN). BAPN is a LOX inhibitor. The enzyme Lysil Oxidase (LOX) acts by initiating covalent cross-link formation in collagen and prevent penile lengthening. Suppressing this enzyme gives more time for the device to work and allows the collagen to stretch. This compound in the liquid form was (and still is) extensively used to treat lesions in horse tendons. When applied to a tendon, BAPN allows the collagen fibers to heal and arrange themselves in a parallel manner. 40% of the horses were able to run again.
BAPN is not yet approved in humans, but there are some pre-clinical trials to evaluate its safety. They found out that 500 mg orally is totally safe, and gives no collateral symptoms in humans. But the most interesting study is from 1983, where they used 20-30 microliters of BAPN topically, twice a day, in the penis of 9 Peyronie patients for 4 weeks. Although ultrasound did not find significant differences in the fibrosis tissue (that’s probably because 4 weeks is too little time for collagen turnover, as the actor of the study says), there was a lot of qualitative gains. Three patients noticed qualitative changes in the curvature of their penises. Two referred less pain. And one of them referred a total disappearance of pain with erection. “What appeared significant in the latter case was that the stiffness of the penile deformity had lessened to the point that he was able to straighten the erect penis for intercourse, which had been impossible before treatment. This was the only patient in the study whose capacity for sexual intercourse apparently was restored by the treatment.”
Currently there are only one Anti-LOX medication approved for use in humans, and it’s called Zileuton. Unfortunately it is very expensive and you have to take it orally (which means you will need a much higher dosage than BAPN). BAPN is better for being topical and less expensive. In humans no adverse effect was noticed, but in some animals that eat peas from Lathyrus plants (as turkeys and horses), ir produced osteolatyrism and angiolatyrism, which could be serious. That only happens in a very high dosage (i.e. when the animal diet almost exclusively made of sweat-peas, which contain the compound) and during a very long time (must be chronic). Besides that, if applied topically, it will only act in your penis.
I am willing to try BAPN with a traction device and vacuum pump. it costs about $500 for 50g. If I use 2 times what the study used, it would last 500 days. Would anyone like to embark in this journey with me?

I can't say that I'm very familiar with some of the medications/supplements you cite, nor does this forum condone/permit the discussion of performing procedures on one's self without medical clearance/supervision; I'm sorry to say, it's a forum rule and has been since inception.

However discussions of "Chemical PE" have been going on for decades, combining experimental doses with pumps & traction devices and so on. I've heard of stories of men achieving significant gains through various experimental means, but none ever substantiated to the extent that you can find in current modern injectable phalloplasty.

As a matter of fact, if it's collagen and fibrosis you're looking for, why not just fillers done?

On a side note, we may have a Sponsor coming on who would like to promote penis enlargement that is neither surgical or non-surgical (not even injections) - but is rather what I'd call an organic protocol combining a number of (legal) supplements mixed with traction. He claims to have some strong scientific review on it and I'm excited to see if it really has any merit, especially when compared to current options.

Stay tuned.

I had filler put in with no problems but now it;s fat and short.because it's so fat it really looks funny.I will need some kind of surgery to get more length so it looks normal and not so funny looking.

Thank you for your time.

chad2304 wrote: i have a small coloplast 14cm and 1cm rte so i am much smaller then before surgery,can i savely have a filler injection for girth and glans engorgment?

@chad2304
Dr. Victor Liu's response:


Putting in the right size implant to correct erectile dysfunction needs to be very precise and can be tricky. This should be done by an urologist who is well-trained in this procedure. When the implant is too big, pain and discomfort can result, and in extreme cases, can even have extrusion of the implant. When the implant is too small, you may have the same problems you are describing. Even when the "right size" is put in problems can still arise. This is because as time passes the penis tissues can stretch or shrink, whereas, the implant does not change, resulting in the implants being "too small" or "too big"

The problems that you described can be satisfactorily corrected or improved by injecting fillers, preferably non-absorbable ones. Sometimes, your own fat can be used for injection as a filler. The results are usually satisfactory and the patients are happy. The 3 pictures ( 0650 , 0655 and 0658 ) show the penis after a penile implant. The patient complained of pain and tenderness to touch, there are areas of protrusion of the implant, the shaft of the penis is angulated and that his partner complains of hard edges of the penis poking and hurting her on penetration of her vagina. The 3 pictures ( 0449 , 0455 and 0460 ) show the appearance of the penis after treatment with filler injection. There is no more tenderness or protrusion of the implant. The shaft is much straighter. The length and girth of the penis are bigger. Overall, the appearance as well as the function of the penis are improved.

Similar results can be obtained with insertion of alloderm or surgimend. However, with the implants already inserted followed by extensive dissection required for the insertion may proved to be "too much surgery" possibly with a higher rate of complications. I feel that injection of filler or fat work best for this purpose.

Hope that is helpful.

Victor Liu, MD, FACS., FRCS(C).

Frankie4toes wrote: I was thinking of getting the penile lengthening from Rejuvall and was considering the fat transfer at the same time. It seems like very few people are going with the fat transfer over other methods for girth increase. I’m new to all this and am wondering why that is? I like the idea of doing both length and girth at the same time and like that the fat transfer is permanent but I feel like I’m missing something. Any advise is appreciated, thanks.

The issue with fat-transfer are two factors:

(1.) Its history.
During the 2000s, fat-transfer was really the only filler option marketed since dermal fillers hadn't picked up in popularity for its use in the penis. During this time, many doctors would give the patient what they wanted, which often meant overfilling the shaft with high volumes of fat. Not surprisingly, this fat needs a blood supply to survive, and your body can vascularize the new tissue only so quickly, meaning excessive fat may and likely will die off. This explains why modern approaches to fat include layering it incrementally (like brick-laying) over multiple appointments to ensure sufficient blood supply, combining fat with other fillers, and/or the use of platelet rich plasma (PRP) to expedite the healing & vascularization process.

(2.) The advent of filler alternatives.
In the 2010s, new filler options were popping up, and much of their allure was that you wouldn't have harvest fat; this was especially noteworthy because you had to have sufficient amount of the right kind of fat the doctor would need for a successful result. You had the boom of PMMA in 2011, and the subsequent popularity of Ellanse and Hyaluronic Acid (HA) in the years that followed. Now that there are multiple options, fat-transfer ended up losing some of the phalloplasty market share.

This is the answer to your why question. In my opinion, when performed by an experienced and qualified practitioner (which Rejuvall certainly are), fat-transfer is very much a viable option and its best attribute is that is your own tissue, likely making it the least prone to an adverse foreign body reaction (if at all). I hope that helps.

6x5to6x7 wrote:

Lnpleaeu wrote: Thank you both so much for the detailed answers. I have put in the request for the consultation and the office has not been reaching out to me yet. I might try to call then tomorrow on my day off. I also have put in a request for 2 weeks off. I also have 2 days off in a row weekly so i can always flight back to remove the stitches. I have an office job so hopefully if I have to wear a hanging or stretching device, it would not be too visible nor too complicated to remove to go pee and put it back on easily. The recovery of 6 to 8 months is a a bit frustrating but I guess everything comes with a price. Idk if I read it here or somewhere else that filler or fat injection is kinda squishy and when you are having sex, the filler can be pushed to the base and kinda stick outside. Having the surgery with Surgimend, do you guys have the same problem? Or it would be more natural looking, feeling, and functional. Sorry if the question is too personal. Perhaps, Dr. Liu will explain it better.

Again, thank you so much for the detailed responding!

Hey brother. Just wanted to offer up my experience with PMMA. I have a thread going you can read. I’m only chiming in because you stated fillers look fake or maybe bunch up with sexy and might feel squishy, etc. I can’t speak for all fillers and some of that might be true. I can speak to the PMMA filler treatment I had done in December by Avanti Derma. It’s not squishy, does not feel fake, when I’m erect my dick is rock hard, my veins are already back. My dick is very natural looking and feeling. I actually am going in for round 2 next month because the results of round 1 were so great. I’m extremely happy and so is my wife. You’re recommended to not have sex for at least two weeks, but I had sex on day 6. I’m not recommending that, but I’m just saying…. I have as good or better results without having to go under the knife and endure a 6-9 month healing process. To each their own, but my goal was to achieve the safest, least invasive process with the best results. Hit me up if you have any questions. I just cringe at the thought of surgery when Avanti offers such a great result without surgery. All that said, I agree that the procedure I had done probably won’t help you with erect length.

If someone is considering permanent filler, then I think having a dermal graft is a good choice, because if something goes wrong with the filler it has to go out through surgery anyhow.

Besides, having a dermal graft is likely to give better results. You will not have to remove it because the result was bad, but rather in the rare case there is some complications.

Honestly though, I am a bit concerned how these dermal grafts do long-term, for example 10-20 years. If there are some complications, it has to be removed through surgery.

Even though dermal grafts have been done for nearly 3 decades, it is hard to say whether they are really permanent. However, I guess the same can be said for PMMA. Who knows if the filler might have to be removed for some reason?

Second, like you wrote, surgery should not be underestimated. You have to be strong mentally to cope with it, because it is your penis, but PMMA is also permanent and for that reason any complications might be devastating.

OP wrote that he had some temporary penile retraction, which is common, but it is enough to really freak someone out who is not so strong mentally. I believe that I had some penile retraction too after the surgery, and it gave me a lot of anxiety.

My point is: I believe it is a much better idea to start with HA, and if someone feels that they want to up their game, they can consider surgery or PMMA later. In my opinion, first-timers should not be encouraged to get surgery or permanent fillers. Androfill wrote it recently on the forum that they strongly discourage first-timers from having Ellanse.

Finally, I want to say that Dr. Liu has a treasure trove of information on his website. I wish another Q&A could be done with him.

i have a small coloplast 14cm and 1cm rte so i am much smaller then before surgery,can i savely have a filler injection for girth and glans engorgment?

Pepperoni wrote: Everything still healing nicely and happy with the results? Anything that you would have added or prefer not to have done? Being in Korea and not having a Korean number my access to the internet is limited as it automatically assumes that I’m a minor and restricts what I can view. However last night my home carrier AT&T must have picked up or something because for a hour or so I could search and watch anything so I YouTubed 5S surgery and watched the entire procedure with the degloving, megaderm, liganomettolysis,etc It hurt my stomach so badly, I’m such a whimp. You commented on the other thread I was in about the degloving. That Proud must use a different terminology they must because that video I can only assume that was degloving they removed all the skin from the shaft to put on the dermal graft. I see that you had degloving are you happy that you went this route and just didn’t get filler? Dr Kim is very clear on his website to avoid surgery which he offers and just do filler because it’s safer.
You’ve been such a huge help @Screen2584 with me making the decision to move forward with this with everything that you shared. I’m a little over a week away from surgery. I called Proud last week to see if we could move the surgery sooner but they said that they’re booked up and no spaces were available.

I have been thinking about you, knowing your surgery is coming up, and I can imagine that the wait must be hard. Naturally, there is a lot of hesitation, but I believe that the wait can be good because it also gives you opportunity to reconsider whether or not you want to go ahead with the surgery.

When I read about any kind of dermal graft surgery, it seems that many clinics want to avoid mentioning "degloving". It sounds scary, and when you look it up, it sounds very alarming. I saw some videos of it, and it is enough to watch just for a few seconds to be terrified. Even a picture of it looks terrifying.

I wish I could say it just looks scary, but there is definitely a risk to this kind of procedure. As I understand it, the risk is damage to the neurovascular bundle, which is what gives you an erection. Other complications of nerve damage are persistent pain.

That is also the risk with permanent fillers that if there are complications then degloving is needed to remove as much of the filler as possible. This is a risk with for example Ellanse or PMMA. Based on what I read, some of it might not be able to be removed, and during the removal procedure there is a risk of damage to the neurovascular bundle.

When it comes to inserting dermal grafts, I read different terms used, such as describing it as a procedure similar to circumcision while avoiding mentioning "degloving", but I believe that they are always doing degloving. The dermal graft has to be stitched using sutures, and I do not see how this can be done without degloving the penis.

I even read clinics describe that the dermal graft is "injected" into the penis, but again I do not think this is accurate. As far as I know, the dermal graft always needs to be sutured, and this can only be done by degloving the penis. Clinics simply avoid mentioning the term.

Besides the risk during surgery, there is the risk that the dermal graft has to be removed for some reason in the future, and then the penis has to be degloved again. Then there is the risk of neurovascular damage occurring.

As you can imagine, I do not want to encourage anyone to have this kind of procedure. At the same time however, many people do have permanent filler, and there is a risk with that too. Then dermal graft might certainly be an alternative.

Knowing what I know now however, the only procedure I would be comfortable to have in retrospect would have been HA filler, and it is the only thing I would think is safe enough to recommend to others. If something goes wrong, it can just be dissolved, unlike permanent filler.

I am glad that you read about alternatives, such as MegaFill, but I do not know if Dr. Kim truly prefers it because it is like he claims superior and safer, or because it is simply much more simple than MegaDerm. It astonishes me however that Proud Urology can perform the 5S procedure as quickly as they say. Everywhere I read that when degloving the penis it is a lengthy surgery.

As for my own recovery: everything generally seems okay, but the sites of the incision do still get irritated easily, for example when wearing underwear that rubs against the incision sites. Like I mentioned, the incisions are barely visible now, and the pain there is minimal and usually not noticeable at all.

I have no pain in the penis, except once in a while there can be a sudden sensation of pain that lasts for a couple of seconds. It can happen once a day or less frequently. I do not feel so worried about it, because if it was nerve damage, I think the pain would be persistent.

The foreskin is still a bit tight and swollen, but I can pull it back behind the glans during erection. I do some stretching every day, and I believe that might be causing the swelling, but it is also important in order to loosen the foreskin. I am not sure if this is going to become an issue or if it will pass.

It is so mild that I think no honest urologist would do anything about it. There is preputioplasty, which is a much milder form of circumcision, but I think my tightness is too mild for it to be an option, as I believe circumcision is risky. Outside of the USA it is not a common procedure in many parts of the world, and strongly discouraged.

As for erections, it does seem no different from before, and I do not believe I had any penile retraction. I believe this would be noticeable, so I think it did not happen. There is no curvature either, but during erection the dermal fat graft can be felt.

The bulge I previously mentioned definitely seems less noticeable from when I first noticed it, both when erect and flaccid, however I think it is unavoidable that the dermal fat graft will be felt or noticed in some way. Fillers generally seem much more noticeable, with a less pleasing aesthetic result for many, it would seem.

For me the hardest thing post-surgery has been the constant worry. Not because there have been complications, but because there is the risk of complications, especially during the recovery period.

jackets5 wrote: What is everyone thoughts about these fillers. They are all offered by Dr. Carney. I’m planning on having a procedure with him spring of next year. Planning on multiple treatments. Main priorities are aesthetics, followed by size but do want a substantial gain. Cost is not a concern.

I'd consider one of the Hyaluronic Acid (HA) options, be it Juvaderm or Ravenesse. I'd ask them their opinion on which one is better for penile application.

This way you don't have to concern yourself with permanence if you end up not liking the procedure or the aesthetics. If you end up liking it, you can either resume topping off the HA once every year or year-and-a-half or so, or opt for a more permanent option (e.g. Bellafill).

If cost isn't a concern, I'd probably stick to the HA long-term if I was satisfied, that's just my 2cents. Besides, subsequent top-offs are going to require less volume and will be much more manageable cost-wise, albeit not cheap.

ioannis519 wrote: Wow these results look incredible. Can I ask how much you gained? And who your doctor was?

I did the surgery with Dr. Theerapong Poonyakariyagorn in Bangkok at Bangpakok 9 International Hospital (Interplast Clinic). Dr. Theerapong Poonyakariyagorn used to work at PAI Clinic for 12 years, where it seems a lot of penis surgeries were performed, and they learned some techniques from Dr. Sava Perovic who visited there.

It seems the technique Dr. Theerapong Poonyakariyagorn used for my surgery was his own refined technique however, but it seems to have some similarities with techniques I read about performed at Peking University People's Hospital.

The scars are almost not visible, but incisions were made on the left and right side. For the procedure the penis will be degloved. He also did ligamentolysis, selective dorsal neurectomy and scrotal lift. Selective dorsal neurectomy is common in China and Korea.

For the ligamentolysis I was told there are several techniques that he can use to prevent retraction. I feel that my aesthetic result has improved since I last took the picture. There is less of a bulge at the base of the penis. The phimosis has also healed, but the foreskin is still a bit tight.

In one study 7/20 people who got dermal fat graft without circumcision got phimosis, but all the cases resolved in 1-4 months. I would definitely not recommend doing ligamentolysis at the same time, as the penis will be very swollen after having dermal fat graft. It will not be possible to use a penile traction device for at least 2 months.

Elsewhere where I read that dermal fat graft is performed is in Serbia by Professor Djordjevic and Dr. Borko Stojanovic, and in Australia it seems that Dr. Oates offers dermal fat graft. Other alternatives to consider might be AlloDerm, performed by Dr. Reed in the USA, and Dr. Solomon (Surgimend).

For girth increase the result is consistently 30%, supposedly slightly better with dermal fat graft, unlike fillers where the result is very individual. If you want the maximum possible girth increase, then any kind of dermal graft procedure is not the right choice, however for an even result it seems a very good choice. With fillers however, you can keep injecting until you have achieved your desired girth increase, but along the way you might have complications. If you do HA filler then it is easy to correct, but with other fillers it might be very hard to correct.