TOPIC: New HA filler claiming to last up to 5 years

Dr Oates wrote:
Ravenesse Versa is a HA made in Canada. It uses proprietary \"Wet milling\" to produce perfectly round particles of HA. Although Allergan will tell us its product is monophasic and not particles.... they all push the limitation of their version as it unique benefit.
We don\'t have it in Australia and I have not seen any publications to back up the claims it \"integrates better with less swelling\". Interestingly they don\'t seem to have a range of thinner/ thicker products. Shall we ask them to send me 100 ml to do some trials?

How long does the manufacturer claim Versa lasts? Any idea how it would hypothetically compare to Voluma?

Androfill wrote: 4-years is a ridiculous amount of time to wait out with a problem similar to that described by Upsize in the link above, and I hear of these issues with Ellanse not infrequently (in the face).

Yeah, I also \"hear\" it, like when Upsize suddenly registers on the forum the day someone starts the first Ellanse thread, describes his issue (with no pictures to document it), then vanishes. But where is the evidence that granulomas are high risk from Ellanse? I know the studies done by Sinclair are relatively small, but there are many studies done demonstrating the safety of PCL, so exactly how many documented cases or studies is the label high risk being based on? Do we have good reason to believe it is riskier than PMMA?

\'4-year PMMA\', but at least you know Ellanse is fully bioabsorbable eventually.

4-years is a very long time to wait with a problem similar to that described by Upsize in the link above, if genuine (it sounds plausible).

Ellanse risks need to be explained properly including what the backup plan is for dealing with complications.

Androfill wrote: It would be good if there was a discussion on how complications and bad results from Ellanse are going to be dealt with when it is injected deep in the penis and can\'t be removed for 4 years.

Would you expect this to be any different from dealing with PMMA?

On this topic.
The filler Dr Kim claims to last 5 years is Cultgel Ultra made by BNC Korea.
We ordered a lot of this filler as we had good reports from some patients who have had it. But I doubt 5 years is true - BNC would be promoting a 5 year HA if they really had one?

In regard to Ellanse.
There is speculation that for economic reasons HA is preferred, but I don\'t think this is the case.
A safe and sensible 4-year product would greatly expand the market for filler procedures.

Dr Horn has injected the 3 and 4-year varieties of Ellanse in a number of patients who have accepted the high risk of Ellanse, and so far the results are good.
But Ellanse is high risk because, if you have a problem there is no dissolving the problem away like with HA, using Hyaluronidase.
Hyaluronidase is used at the clinic for little alterations, maybe a bit of filler is pinching a nerve etc and needs to be dissolved, or the shape is not perfect > use Hyaluronidase to fix.

Ellanse is more dangerous in the volume required in this area and can pool and clump together over time. To remove or alter Ellanse is difficult and invasive.

It would be good if there was a discussion on how complications and bad results from Ellanse are going to be dealt with when injected deep and can\'t be removed for 4 years.

phalloboards.websitetoolbox.com/post/dr-...nse-8390560?trail=30
User Upsize\'s experience in the face.

chester wrote: Where\'s their documentation to support this claim?

Yeah, this is annoying. Vague claims and no real specific examples.

chester wrote: Subtle 77 had his procedure over a year ago. Go ask him how many touchups he\'s had during that time.

1 year 10 months so far and holding steady.

mediatps wrote: Androfil have stopped using Ellanse as they think it is too dangerous.

Where\'s their documentation to support this claim?
Bottom line: As long as clinics know that there\'s a product that will virtually eliminate their repeat business (going back for touch-ups) they will never recommend Ellanse. Subtle 77 had his procedure over a year ago. Go ask him how many touchups he\'s had during that time. Now compare that to HA, Radiasse & PMMA.

I think Dr Kim\'s website\'s concerns over Ellanse are total BS. No where in the world will you ever see so much real life data on PE as here. We\'ve seen hundreds of patients with PMMA, which works exactly the same as Ellanse and Radiesse, yet as far as I\'m aware, there has never been a case of a result which caused a problem similar to Peyronies. I\'m not one of those guys who read some threads and asked some questions before getting my procedure. I read every single PMMA thread on both this and the old forum and I did this within the last 6 months.

Of course lumps are a potential problem, especially in an organ like the penis, but that\'s why good Dr\'s are conservative in their approach and advise post op massaging. Dr Oates doesn\'t inject 40cc of Ellanse at once for a reason.

think wrote: Are they referring to specific dangers with regard to usage in the penis?

From their website:

And he does not use Ellans' (70% carboxymethyl cellulose based gel carrier and 30% polycaprolactone microspheres) for penis enlargement.Because Korean doctors know well about its off-label use for penile Girth enhancement.They report: '???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?? ? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????.'
[Ellans' can cause severe adhesions, which can lead to pain during Erection due to penile deformation and adhesion.]That means the unapproved, unintended, off-label use for penis enlargement can create a result similar to Peyronie\'s Disease.Korean cosmetic surgeons who are friends of Dr Kim tell him that Ellans' used on faces often causes a hard consistency lumping phenomenon: '??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???'
[Many people are suffering from the symptoms of hardness following Ellans' treatment.]These cases are actively being collected and compiled to launch protests against Ellans'.When manufacturers brag about the great results being achieved using fillers, you will always find the disclaimer: 'Individual results may vary.'Videos of 'actual cases' are 88% animated simulations showing magical results with dramatic soundtracks ' not real. Don\'t jump to conclusions based on slick marketing materials.Dr Kim concludes: Ellanse is not an advisable material for penile augmentations.

Very generic i know. Could be just a marketing strategy towards the products they offer instead.

I wasn't implying that. It just came up in the first page of results so the point is even if a reaction is rare you need a good plan for dealing with complications, and who will handle it. How far away are they? Are you going to go to someone different from who did your procedure? How long will it take you to get an appt, etc.

think wrote: My thoughts are that it would really be great to hear specifics, case reports, etc., rather than vague claims. PCL has a long history of safe biomedical usage. Are they referring to specific dangers with regard to usage in the penis?

Keep in mind, there are risks with everything. I just googled cutegel, and this was on the first page of the results:

openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedresult.php?img...s-29-S176-g003&req=4

That case doesn\'t really tell us anything negative about Cutgel, that we didn\'t already know was a possibility with all fillers. I don\'t think there is any doubt that PCL, Radiesse and PMMA are more likely to cause a similar problem than any HA product. As at least with HA there is a chance you can dissolve the product that is causing the blockage that cause the necrosis. You can\'t do that with particulate based fillers. Personally I\'d never take the risk of having filler in the nose with all those blood vessels. But if I had to, I\'m choosing HA, even if the risk is only marginally smaller.

mediatps wrote: Androfil have stopped using Ellanse as they think it is too dangerous.

[...]
Thoughts?

My thoughts are that it would really be great to hear specifics, case reports, etc., rather than vague claims. PCL has a long history of safe biomedical usage. Are they referring to specific dangers with regard to usage in the penis?

Keep in mind, there are risks with everything. I just googled cutegel, and this was on the first page of the results:

openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedresult.php?img...s-29-S176-g003&req=4

Bottom line, make sure whoever does your procedure is well prepared to deal with complications.

mediatps wrote: Too squishy? Hmm, thats interesting. I\'ll ask for more info from Androfil.

Yeah, bare in mind Dr Kim has a habit of injecting way too much.

Too squishy? Hmm, thats interesting. I\'ll ask for more info from Androfil.

Dr Kim is a complete Fraudster, it's only temporary and won't last as long as it states but I don't see any harm in trying it for that price, although there was an Aussie guy who recently went to Dr Kim for HA and complained to was too squishy and had it dissolved.