TOPIC: Average gain PMMA

Smartman, how many CC\'s did you have in your first session and what were your gains?

In theory 10cc 30%, 15cc 20%, 30cc 10% and 60cc 5% all have the same amount of PMMA. Yet I\'d wager that 60cc of 5% will yield the biggesst gains and 10cc of 30% the lowest. At the moment Dr C is starting off with between 15cc-20cc of 10%. I think he\'d be better off starting with 30cc of 5% (6% as he mixes his own).

Hi hoddle, I had around 30 cc\'s in each round ( I have just sent an e-mail to Dr.Samy asking him this Q.) .
My Flaccid diam. before my PMMA injection ( and after the 10 months of my alloderm graft which almost all of it was absorbed ) was 3 cm and after my 1st injection it went up to 4-4.2 cm and after my 2nd rd became 5-5.2 cm.
My new collagen ( it feels like your own connective tissues graft covering almost 270 deg. of my penis ) and its thickness in Flaccid is exactly 1 cm i.e. I have now 1 cm thick graft over my Flaccid penis, of course during Erection my graft will be compressed and becomes thinner but firmer .

I agree with you (( In theory 10cc 30%, 15cc 20%, 30cc 10% and 60cc 5% all have the same amount of PMMA )) and I have mentioned this before :-

1 cc of 30% has 9 million PMMA beads1 cc of 20% has 6 million PMMA beads1 cc of 10% has 3 million PMMA beadsAnd of course 1 cc of 5% has 1.5 million PMMA beads
So in the volumes you mentioned as an example (10cc 30%, 15cc 20%, 30cc 10% and 60cc 5%) you will have 90 million PMMA beads in each case.

smartman wrote:
I agree with you (( In theory 10cc 30%, 15cc 20%, 30cc 10% and 60cc 5% all have the same amount of PMMA )) and I have mentioned this before :-

1 cc of 30% has 9 million PMMA beads1 cc of 20% has 6 million PMMA beads1 cc of 10% has 3 million PMMA beadsAnd of course 1 cc of 5% has 1.5 million PMMA beads
So in the volumes you mentioned as an example (10cc 30%, 15cc 20%, 30cc 10% and 60cc 5%) you will have 90 million PMMA beads in each case.

All each example will have 90 million beads, but the 30% will only have 7cc of carrier and the 5% will have 57cc. This is why I think the 30% will be more dense and the 5% will give more overall volume. I think the closer together the beads, the more dense the collagen, but the more spread out the beads are, the more space for growth. This could be complete nonsense, but it would definitley explain the dimishing returns we are seeing. Eastender recently reported a 0.5\" gain from 30cc of 30%. Olafspo reported he can hardly notice his gains with the same 30cc at 30%. Yet we\'ve seen guys getting 0.5\" from 10%. Guys such as yourself with 30% have described the way 30% feels in a slightly different way to guys at 20%, who in turn seem to think that theirs feels firmer than 10%. So maybe it has to have something to do with how evenly spread out the beads are. Unless I\'m missing something, surely 90 million beads in a 60cc solution must be spaced further apart than 90 million in a 10cc solution.

It is true the higher the conc.(i.e. the beads are closer together) is the denser the collagen will be and thats why they use the 40-45% conc. for bony defect reconstruction (e.g. frontal bone) but when you have more beads you will have also more gain in volume even if it was only mild gain.
As far as I remember olafspo had only 20 cc\'s ?? and not 30 cc\'s, I am not sure about eastender ??
In my case 30% feels firm and never soft like fat, thats why Dr.Samy said 30% will give you almost the same texture like a real penile tissue.
I just received Dr.Samy\'s e-mail in regard of the volume I got in each rd :-
I am not in my office, this will occur only January 10, to see the amount I`d implanted in your penis.
For touch-ups I use only the 30% concentration.
Regards

olafspo and eastender got only 20 cc\'s @30% Metacrill

Sorry, you are right, but either way, it\'s still alot more PMMA than the guys recieving 10%.

I wonder why Dr C wont use a higher volume of 10% concentration. If he\'ll use 15cc-20cc of 20%, then why won\'t he use 30cc of 10%? It seems to me that the biggest gains from the first injection. So given the diminishing returns principle, then maybe it would be better to put as much 10% in as he can, rather than a concervative amount of 20%. I think 30cc\'s of 10% would probably give a similar gain as 20cc of 30%, despite there only being half the PMMA beads.

My guess (which is somewhat educated, as I\'m a medical doctor) is that the carrier may contribute to initial growth, but that is of little consequence in the long run. Due to tissue remodelling, any excess collagen, i.e. collagen not in the direct vicinity of the macrophages containing the PMMA beads, will eventually be broken down. I\'m not sure how long this process wil take, but I think this explains why people tend to lose some Girth after six months. In essence this is also what occurs in any small wound or lesion, scar tissue, which of course is also collagen, will initially be hypertrophic, but tends to diminish over time, up until a point where it is hardly visible most of the time. I\'ll bet the issue of \"diminishing returns\" is also caused by tissue remodelling.
In some people, mostly those of African descent, scar tissue actually tends to grow over time (keloidal scars). I\'m curious if this can also occur in PMMA bioplasty.

I asked Lemperle about keloid scars and he said it wouldn\'t occur.

The carrier as I understand is only present for a day or two. I\'m not sure why it would contribute to initial growth. I just thin the more carrier the further apart the beads will be. I think if they are too far away the collagen formed will be soft and if they are too close it will be too hard. So I don\'t think diminishing returns are explained by tissue remodelling, but simply density (ie tougher tissue, rather than more volume). Perhaps the decrease over time some have observed is down to tissue remodelling as you suggest.

Well, I was actually thinking of bovine collagen as a carrier, which I guess does act as a spacer of sort to be replaced by your own tissue. I agree that other carriers will probably have less of an initial effect, but that the larger the amount of inert liquid you inject, the looser the structure of the tissue will be, at least initially. Loose structure means greater size. I can\'t fathom it being permanent though, I think it will get denser, and reduce in size over time, similar to the results you get with higher concentrations.
To summarize: for the end result I don\'t think it really matters which concentration you use, my guess is that the eventual size depends only on the amount of beads injected. In lower concentrations size gains will initially look greater, but diminish over time because of tissue remodelling, which occurs less dramatically when using higher concentrations. If you use a higher concentration, you will reach your end result more quickly, and lose less Girth over time. Just a guess though, I\'m not an expert on this subject (but did receive 12cc\'s of the 30% concentration recently).
Sorry for my English BTW, it\'s not my native language.

Justabitmore wrote: @ Jason Good to hear from you! You say gains are still there. I seem to remember you gained 0.75? did you drop any of that?

Yes i dropped I am about .60 gain from .75 right now

@hoddle10,
What you have said it is almost true (( I think 30cc\'s of 10% would probably give a similar gain as 20cc of 30%, despite there only being half the PMMA beads )).
If you remember I wrote before about the followings :-
1- 30% will give you almost 75% of the initial injected volume e.g. 10 cc\'s @ 30% after 6 months you will get 7.5 cc\'s permanent collagen.
2- 10% will give you only 55%.

So in the example you gave 20 cc\'s @ 30% ---> around 15 cc\'s permanent collagen. And 30 cc\'s @ 10% ---> around 16.5 cc\'s permanent .
N.B. That is only approximately.
I know some doctors wouldn\'t agree with my points (e.g. Prof. Lemeprle thinks you gain almost 1:1) but I am sure (i.e. only in my experience) about the 30% --> the permanent gain you get will never be = the injected initial volume .

I\'m thinking I probably wasn\'t clear enough when I said that the issue of diminishing returns is in my opinion caused by tissue remodelling. My guess is that prior application of a lower concentration creates a loose foundation, which is more efficient at encapsulating the beads subsequently injected using a solution with a higher concentration.

BTW I just remember now when Dr. Samy measured my Flaccid diam. before and directly after each round it has almost never changed since the last one i.e. directly after my 2nd and last rd my Flaccid diam. was around 5.2 cm and that was in June 2009 and I am 100% sure about that because that was my target and I have insisted that my Flaccid diam. should end a bit above 5 cm (>2\") and now my Flaccid diam. is almost the same (between 5-5.2 cm) and never below 5cm . Strange It looks to me that Lemperle is right and I am wrong ????
My measurements directly after the last rd and now prove that Lemperle is right, it could be I was confused because of the swelling after I left the clinic and I was huge .

@sufi
PMMA will not end up in macrophages, or at least that is what my reading has told me so far. PMMA is a foreign body that triggers collagen deposition when the body tries to encapsulate it after it fails to be removed by immune cells.