TOPIC: Summary: my different Sizes + Women Reactions + should I do another Round?

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I'd completely agree. In the real world, not a porn or internet induced fantasy, 6.0-6.5 inches in circumference is very large. It'll generate comments and some will find it mildly uncomfortable after in the odd instance. I'd say for most people playing the field it's a realistic big size.

Out of sheer curiosity, and not to promote it, what's the largest you've taken a patient with HA? And did they provide any feed back after?

If you don't want to mention it publicly, feel free to PM. I'm married so we've discussed our own comfort and goals but I'm just curious about what you've done and heard back.[/quote]

The two patients below are probably the biggest at 7.0/7.1.
We would not put so much HA in now because HA is marketed as a somewhat reversible procedure. Increasing the thickness from 5.0 to 7.1 (+40%) is not going to allow a HA patient to go back to the original size without some stretching of the skin.

Patients A and E 7.0 and 7.1 girth

Generally, 20-30ml of HA is the maximum we will inject over multiple sessions for a gain of around 1 inch (20%), depending on the patient's length.
There is a good chance that HA won't feel realistic beyond this size.

Therefore we switch to Ellanse (usually dissolving away substantially all of the HA first) if a patient wishes to augment their penis beyond a 1-inch circumference increase.

The biggest patient overall has had 89ml of Ellanse (and there is probably a residual 10-15ml of HA still in there too).
These procedures were in London with Dr Horn.
He is a Phalloboards member and I am guessing he will read this post. His dimensions are 7.5 x 7.5.

I have been trying to convince him to post photos of it, or share his Ellanse journey here but he won't for some reason.
I understand his wife effectively locked him out of the bedroom with that size.
He told me that on holidays at the seaside people give him shocked looks when he walks along the beach wearing speedos.

Attached are messages from a patient who tells me that went from being an average guy to bedding 10/10 women when word came out about his penis thickness.
Reading through his messages now I see he is at 7.25 inches in girth, so he is the thickest HA patient I am aware of.
I am surprised the HA is supporting such a thick layer but he assures me it is all firm. He is uncircumcised, 6.5 length.

I know that he feels it is the best thing in the world to have a 7-inch+ thick penis.
However, I am also certain that many women would not enjoy it, I have heard as much from many patients and their partners.

Thanks for your detailed response!

I get other clinics mixed up... Are you Dr Oates?

I listened to the Podcast with him and Dr C and I remember high volume HA being mentioned as something that shouldn't really be done because past a certain point you've stretched and altered the penis enough that if the patient doesn't maintain that volume, it would look odd deflated. Hence Ellanse or PMMA.

That's the most Ellanse I've read anywhere. I know there's higher volume PMMA patients out there but that's substantial. It is interesting how for some partners 7.5 is a complete no go and others jump at it. Kind of sucks if that guy went past where his wife was ok with it though.

I just was curious about it all now. In the earlier days of this forum, high volumes were always being talked down and avoided because there was a looming thought of complications. Now it's at the point where any of the sphere based fillers seem safe if injected properly even in multi session patients.

It's kind of crazy for me to look back and realize this all is at the point where things aren't scary and unknown any longer.

justn8 wrote: Thanks for your detailed response!

I get other clinics mixed up... Are you Dr Oates?

I listened to the Podcast with him and Dr C and I remember high volume HA being mentioned as something that shouldn't really be done because past a certain point you've stretched and altered the penis enough that if the patient doesn't maintain that volume, it would look odd deflated. Hence Ellanse or PMMA.

That's the most Ellanse I've read anywhere. I know there's higher volume PMMA patients out there but that's substantial. It is interesting how for some partners 7.5 is a complete no go and others jump at it. Kind of sucks if that guy went past where his wife was ok with it though.

I just was curious about it all now. In the earlier days of this forum, high volumes were always being talked down and avoided because there was a looming thought of complications. Now it's at the point where any of the sphere based fillers seem safe if injected properly even in multi session patients.

It's kind of crazy for me to look back and realize this all is at the point where things aren't scary and unknown any longer.

No this is Androfill Clinic . You are thinking of Calibre Clinic .
I listened to the same podcast and I don't remember hearing that said in the podcast, but regardless of where it was said yes it is correct.

From the podcast below, the points that were interesting.
15:00 - Ellanse lasting a lot longer than expected, Dr. Oates has not seen it ever go away (even after 6 years). Yes, this is what we are seeing too.
30:00 - Removal of PMMA in 3 cases.
31:30 - Dr C saying that 1/2 an inch increase in girth is a more reasonable goal. Agreed.
33:30 - Dr O saying that he experiences more lumps and bumps with Ellanse than HA. We find it sets quickly, the aftercare particularly moulding and bandages to prevent retraction are essential
50:00 - Relevant to this forum post ... Some women don't want the penis to be too big / the penis can be too big for sex.
Podcast

I am not sure if 89ml is the most Ellanse injected anywhere or not, however, the patient's length allowed for it.
The most injected in any one session was 14ml. We run into a problem after a couple of sessions of Ellanse, after the collagen has matured, it is difficult to get the cannula through the collagen. This is obviously not a problem with HA. Perhaps that topic has been addressed before.

Back to the subject of this thread, it was good to hear Dr. C and Oates discussing small penis syndrome, dysmorphia, and discussing reasonable girth increase goals (1/2 an inch to 1 inch).

In terms of women's reactions, if you have a long-term partner you can discuss with them their preference.
If you are a young guy playing the field, you should know that you are going to start putting some girls off having sex with you beyond 6.0 inches girth.

Androfill wrote: 15:00 - Ellanse lasting a lot longer than expected, Dr. Oates has not seen it ever go away (even after 6 years). Yes, this is what we are seeing too.
.

Apologies if I'm hijacking the thread (can move it if so), but Androfill Clinic, do you know why it is that the Canadian Androfill clinic doesn't want to use Ellanse ? It's a bit disapointing than CAN folks have to go out of country to get any get of permanent Girth enhancement filler procedure....

Because Health Canada sucks and Ellanse isn't available for use in Canada last I checked.

Last I dug around there are no providers in Canada that offer any form of sphere based collagen building fillers. No injectors willing to use Bellafill.

PhoenixNow wrote:

Androfill wrote: 15:00 - Ellanse lasting a lot longer than expected, Dr. Oates has not seen it ever go away (even after 6 years). Yes, this is what we are seeing too.
.

Apologies if I'm hijacking the thread (can move it if so), but Androfill Clinic, do you know why it is that the Canadian Androfill clinic doesn't want to use Ellanse ? It's a bit disappointing than CAN folks have to go out of country to get any get of permanent Girth enhancement filler procedure....

That benefit that Ellanse would eventually clear from the body now seems to be in question at two major clinics, Androfill and Calibre (with Dr Oates saying it is lasting more than 6 years), and perhaps Avanti Derma are seeing the same durability of the product. If Ellanse in the penis is turning out to be a more permanent solution like PMMA, then the risk profile is higher than we once thought.

The risks that a doctor must consider when using Ellanse and the risks that an individual must consider are obviously very different.
From one angle, the patient takes a gamble which will likely pay off (the gamble of getting a good result and avoiding complications), but for the doctor when there is eventually a complication (and statistically this is certain), they will have to face it. So in short by choosing to use Ellanse we know we are going to eventually, with certainty, face a problem, but a patient can be pretty confident that they won't face a problem. There is asymmetric risk, although obviously the materiality of the problem is higher for the patient.

When we consider HA, from our perspective (considering our interests), there is very little risk that we will damage a patient, be sued, or have medical licenses come under scrutiny should an issue occur. In regard to Ellanse, the risks are higher in all three categories (causing damage, being sued, and having a regulator question the wisdom of injecting PCL into the penis for a cosmetic procedure).

If we consider Androfill uses Hyalase in approximately 1 in 20 HA patients (to correct minor to moderate issues) (5%), it means in approximately 50 patients per year in London (5%) we have this magic substance to bail us out called Hyalase, which is not available to us for Ellanse patients. We could not operate a medical business with 50 complications per year and no antidote.

To make Ellanse a viable solution in a litigation-friendly nation such as the UK, or in USA or Canada, that % of issues that we see with HA needs to come down much lower for Ellanse, considering we have no 'antidote'. The price of the procedure also needs to be much higher (to additionally 'self-insure' or build up a fund for dealing with complications (complications that are moderate but not severe enough to use negligence insurance for).

At present in the UK we do not adequately account for these risks in the pricing of Ellanse in my view (Ellanse should be much more expensive than it is). That calculation may be different in a different jurisdiction.

Androfill Canada is run by Dr. Jack Chang and Pollock Clinics / Gentle Procedures. They would have to consider that the risks involved in offering a product like Ellanse outweigh the benefits. They have a large group of companies offering low-risk, 'gentle' procedures, I can guess that would not want to risk their wider business by offering Ellanse - but by all means, reach out to them and ask.

Dr. Jack Chang was trained by both Ingrid Tall (Androfill Australia), and Dr. Gary Horn in person in London over 2 days (seeing 16 live procedures including the treatment of complications). Dr. Chang is an experienced Urologist, so in Canada there really is an excellent option for HA. If Dr Chang doesn't want to use Ellanse we support that decision.

Referring back to the podcast, at one point Dr. Oates was discussing a new permanent PAM filler Aquamid that he is experimenting with (around 1:03:00 timestamp).
I wonder why he is experimenting with this PAM filler when Ellanse is lasting so long, 6 years+ in his clinic (and possibly longer). Dr Horn and I do email him from time to time so I might ask the question directly, unless he replies here.

Dr. C in the Podcast briefly touched on the differences between Ellanse and PMMA, but seemed to focus on the packaging and superficial differences.

I think a question that needs to be answered, and probably Dr. C. is in the best place to answer it (considering he uses both PMMA and Ellanse), "if Ellanse seems to be lasting for so long, and seems not to have the benefit of eventually biodegrading away, then is there any benefit of using Ellanse over PMMA" or conversely, is there any benefit of using PMMA over Ellanse.

Androfill wrote:

PhoenixNow wrote:

Androfill wrote: 15:00 - Ellanse lasting a lot longer than expected, Dr. Oates has not seen it ever go away (even after 6 years). Yes, this is what we are seeing too.
.

Apologies if I'm hijacking the thread (can move it if so), but Androfill Clinic, do you know why it is that the Canadian Androfill clinic doesn't want to use Ellanse ? It's a bit disappointing than CAN folks have to go out of country to get any get of permanent Girth enhancement filler procedure....

That benefit that Ellanse would eventually clear from the body now seems to be in question at two major clinics, Androfill and Calibre (with Dr Oates saying it is lasting more than 6 years), and perhaps Avanti Derma are seeing the same durability of the product. If Ellanse in the penis is turning out to be a more permanent solution like PMMA, then the risk profile is higher than we once thought.

The risks that a doctor must consider when using Ellanse and the risks that an individual must consider are obviously very different.
From one angle, the patient takes a gamble which will likely pay off (the gamble of getting a good result and avoiding complications), but for the doctor when there is eventually a complication (and statistically this is certain), they will have to face it. So in short by choosing to use Ellanse we know we are going to eventually, with certainty, face a problem, but a patient can be pretty confident that they won't face a problem. There is asymmetric risk, although obviously the materiality of the problem is higher for the patient.

When we consider HA, from our perspective (considering our interests), there is very little risk that we will damage a patient, be sued, or have medical licenses come under scrutiny should an issue occur. In regard to Ellanse, the risks are higher in all three categories (causing damage, being sued, and having a regulator question the wisdom of injecting PCL into the penis for a cosmetic procedure).

If we consider Androfill uses Hyalase in approximately 1 in 20 HA patients (to correct minor to moderate issues) (5%), it means in approximately 50 patients per year in London (5%) we have this magic substance to bail us out called Hyalase, which is not available to us for Ellanse patients. We could not operate a medical business with 50 complications per year and no antidote.

To make Ellanse a viable solution in a litigation-friendly nation such as the UK, or in USA or Canada, that % of issues that we see with HA needs to come down much lower for Ellanse, considering we have no 'antidote'. The price of the procedure also needs to be much higher (to additionally 'self-insure' or build up a fund for dealing with complications (complications that are moderate but not severe enough to use negligence insurance for).

At present in the UK we do not adequately account for these risks in the pricing of Ellanse in my view (Ellanse should be much more expensive than it is). That calculation may be different in a different jurisdiction.

Androfill Canada is run by Dr. Jack Chang and Pollock Clinics / Gentle Procedures. They would have to consider that the risks involved in offering a product like Ellanse outweigh the benefits. They have a large group of companies offering low-risk, 'gentle' procedures, I can guess that would not want to risk their wider business by offering Ellanse - but by all means, reach out to them and ask.

Dr. Jack Chang was trained by both Ingrid Tall (Androfill Australia), and Dr. Gary Horn in person in London over 2 days (seeing 16 live procedures including the treatment of complications). Dr. Chang is an experienced Urologist, so in Canada there really is an excellent option for HA. If Dr Chang doesn't want to use Ellanse we support that decision.

Referring back to the podcast, at one point Dr. Oates was discussing a new permanent PAM filler Aquamid that he is experimenting with (around 1:03:00 timestamp).
I wonder why he is experimenting with this PAM filler when Ellanse is lasting so long, 6 years+ in his clinic (and possibly longer). Dr Horn and I do email him from time to time so I might ask the question directly, unless he replies here.

Dr. C in the Podcast briefly touched on the differences between Ellanse and PMMA, but seemed to focus on the packaging and superficial differences.

I think a question that needs to be answered, and probably Dr. C. is in the best place to answer it (considering he uses both PMMA and Ellanse), "if Ellanse seems to be lasting for so long, and seems not to have the benefit of eventually biodegrading away, then is there any benefit of using Ellanse over PMMA" or conversely, is there any benefit of using PMMA over Ellanse.

Obviously not a practitioner, but one of the times I was there I asked a somewhat similar question and I think the conversation after kind of weaved around an answer to that.

For one, I believe Linnea has become such a staple for them that their comfort level with it is so high that they wouldn't shift to solely Ellanse for negligible temporary benefits. Morales also seems to really love the 10% concentration. I recall her doing a patient post with one that was all 10%, had good gains and fantastic esthetics and she noted it fell within her theory that significant gains in early rounds can be had with lower concentrations/less product and better aesthetics. They also like that they can use 30% to build significant bulk and have the 10% option to help with irregularities or gradually correct things. I feel like they may also have a better margin on PMMA because of their relationship with Linnea. I know sometimes in a day after check up they'll touch up areas, etc.

I think mainly it's just because it's the product that successfully built that side of his business and has a good track record on their end.

Side note, my understanding is you could use a more long lived HA to temporarily correct any Ellanse irregularities or add additional temporary size on top? I was told by a practitioner here that he had no issues injecting with HA after a sphere based filler was previously used but I'd love another docs input on that.

Androfill wrote:

PhoenixNow wrote:

Androfill wrote: 15:00 - Ellanse lasting a lot longer than expected, Dr. Oates has not seen it ever go away (even after 6 years). Yes, this is what we are seeing too.
.

Apologies if I'm hijacking the thread (can move it if so), but Androfill Clinic, do you know why it is that the Canadian Androfill clinic doesn't want to use Ellanse ? It's a bit disappointing than CAN folks have to go out of country to get any get of permanent Girth enhancement filler procedure....

That benefit that Ellanse would eventually clear from the body now seems to be in question at two major clinics, Androfill and Calibre (with Dr Oates saying it is lasting more than 6 years), and perhaps Avanti Derma are seeing the same durability of the product. If Ellanse in the penis is turning out to be a more permanent solution like PMMA, then the risk profile is higher than we once thought.

The risks that a doctor must consider when using Ellanse and the risks that an individual must consider are obviously very different.
From one angle, the patient takes a gamble which will likely pay off (the gamble of getting a good result and avoiding complications), but for the doctor when there is eventually a complication (and statistically this is certain), they will have to face it. So in short by choosing to use Ellanse we know we are going to eventually, with certainty, face a problem, but a patient can be pretty confident that they won't face a problem. There is asymmetric risk, although obviously the materiality of the problem is higher for the patient.

When we consider HA, from our perspective (considering our interests), there is very little risk that we will damage a patient, be sued, or have medical licenses come under scrutiny should an issue occur. In regard to Ellanse, the risks are higher in all three categories (causing damage, being sued, and having a regulator question the wisdom of injecting PCL into the penis for a cosmetic procedure).

Thanks for the thorough explanation. I do understand the provider-side concerns listed, although the reality of it is impractical on the user-side. I can't say I would take a different business decision dealing with a similar risk profile though. Just a bit costly money and time wise having to "refill" HA so frequently. It is what it is..

I am 5.4 inches = 13.8cm now.
I gained 1.2cm = 0,47 inches last time with 20ml.
If I gain that again, I would be 15cm = 5,9 inches


I know this is not exact, and:
20ml would do perhaps 1.2cm -> Result 15cm = 5.9 inches
15ml would do perhaps 0.9cm -> Result 14,7cm = 5,78 inches
12ml would do perhaps 0,72cm -> Result 14,52cm = 5,71 inches
10ml would do perhaps 0,6cm -> Result 14,4cm = 5,66 inches

('touch up' is up to 5ml, normal is 6-20ml)

Hm. I guess I would like to be 5.7. I read all experiences of guys here on this forum with different sizes i could find and I think 5.7 or 5.8 is perhaps ideal on average (big but not hurting in a bad way).
( www.phalloboards.info/forum/lust-love-va...like-them-to-be.html )

My current girl said she probably won’t take anal anymore after my next round, she can barely do it now and mouth is also very close.
And she just admitted to me that my penis hurts her vaginally since the last round. And it’s ok for her cause she likes it to hurt a bit, she is a bit masochistic.

I wanna be girthier because: (I am now 5.4 inches)
- I have a big dick fetish and I guess I would like the woman struggling a little bit when putting it in first. And vaginal I did not have that with Europeans I guess ever. (I never had to slow down when putting it in, ok perhaps super-rarely, I *always* take silicone lube cause I think it feels great, perhaps that makes my point moot and women would struggle without.. and I guess I want them to struggle even with lube..) -> and my girl just told me it’s painful for her, and I didn’t even notice it

- I like being dominant / doing dominant roleplay, the ‘I am gonna press my fat cock into you’ fits better when the dick is fat I think
- There was study where women said the ideal penis of one night stand is bigger than the ideal one for the daily boyfriend, right now this fits with my relationship styles

- Girls still hardly ever tell me I have a big dick, I want them to be ‘oh! that’s a big dick!’

- I can just close my hand around my member, and I think with next round I will not be able to anymore -> that’s a stupid reason, but I think it’s kinda cool. And seems like good aesthetic size for me. And I remember at least two girls who showed they like thick cocks and showed with their fingers that they can’t reach around

- I like the feeling of tightness, so far I think it was never too tight (=painful instead of feeling good)

- for this round it’s also the asymmetries of right and left side, wanting it more symetrical

I don’t want to be so girthy that:
- girls have pain when doing vaginal sex with me (I guess 10% girls in pain would already be too much.. so far it’s not the case, I think I have no cases of pain in vaginal sex… perhaps better ‘unwanted amount of pain’ cause some women like a bit pain?)
- I guess girls not wanting anal with me is a bad thing, and I lost one doing anal last round and another lady is on the edge with my current size


I want this to be my last round, don’t wanna risk much, want to focus on aesthetics
1. speak about the parts where i want (see pics) -> and in lower right be careful not to do too much?
2. being careful about putting stuff at the top – it would have to be not much I think, so it tapers well
3. focus on symmetry and looking good
4. Asking her if she has an idea how much to put in? I guess 20ml is typical, and I am totally ok with less, I am actually a bit afraid of becoming too big