TOPIC: Ellansé poor results

I feel exactly the same about our options in the UK. Dr Horn’s manner is exactly what you don’t want when dealing with such a delicate emotional and physical situation.

Dr James Kimilu of Androfill. His website claims he has done 11,970 procedures? Its also stated around 13,000 not so long ago!? So I don’t know whats going on there. Would that make him the most experienced in the world? Does not seem right again!

I’m going to start looking at Moorgate. However Skeptical seems reluctant to connect with them, even tho Francis from Androfill has said himself they have drastically improved. We really need other option’s in the UK because its quite clear that patients are not confident in Dr Horn’s manner.

Regardless of whether Dr Horn is experienced, other things like being on time, making the patient feel at ease and feeling taken care of of its also very important. Clearly he doesn’t do this.

I am reluctant to go with him again so I don’t disagree with what you’re saying at all. I’m just caught between wanting more work done and a lack of options of where to get that work done

We see 2 to 4 Ellanse patients per week, almost all are not from PhalloBoards but are rather ex-HA patients enquiring about a longer-lasting filler.

For perhaps 3 months 2019 we were injecting 1st-time patients with Ellanse.
Giving Ellanse to 1st-time patients was a mistake because the odds of a negative outcome are higher if we have not first seen how the penis responds to a reversible filler.
Ideally, we should check with a trial run HA procedure that:
- The patient has a sound state of mind (are they able to follow instructions, are they going to have sex too soon and make a mess of it, are they going to get exceptional swelling and suffer some panic attack and make a mess of it).
- The patient's anatomy. Are they prone to filler migration into the Foreskin region, or some loose pocket of tissue. Do they have areas with tighter bands of tissue. Are there other aspects of their anatomy which make them a poor candidate for dermal fillers generally. We should find this out with Hyaluronic first, so that if there is an issue we can dissolve it away. Not all potential issues can be predicted in advance through examination of the penis.

I have not written down the names of every patient that has had Ellanse. That said, I do know roughly how many we have had in total, and I know every problem case.
I have seen this problem Machinations, and another one from Dr James Kimilu.

The majority, or even vast majority of Ellanse results are good or even excellent. The patients like the firmness more than anything. The durability of the product is secondary in my mind.

If I thought we couldn't do Ellanse with nearly 0 complications, we would simply not do it, we would pull the product.

Veterans of the forum will probably remember how reluctant we were to offer it in the start. The accusation was that we were trying to scare people off taking Ellanse because the longer-lasting product would hurt recurring HA sales.

Put simply, we can't tolerate more than 1 complication with something serious like Ellanse per year. It is financially and emotionally exhausting for the patient and the last thing we wish to have happen.

A rough estimation of complication rates.

For a new patient with no prior history of dermal fillers, the chance of a minor complication (aesthetics) is around 1 in 5 with Ellanse.
This is far too high for us, and this is why we turn away 1st-time Dermal Filler patients wanting Ellanse.

In a patient who has experienced Dermal Filler to the penis before and who we see is emotionally stable and able to follow instructions, and has demonstrated the ability to mould HA well and has no anatomical quirks the chance of an issue is around 1 in 40 or 2.5%. (assuming that there is not some unrealistically high expectation of laser-guided perfection or dysmorphia present).

The best thing a patient can do is to stay in close contact with me over Whatsapp, email or phone. I have stayed up until the early hours helping Ellanse patients iron out little issues - that isn't purely altruism, it is also self-interest... I don't want any complications and an hour spent after midnight might save me 20 hours dealing with an issue later on.

I remember this case well. I remember thinking that this patient sounded very reasonable over the phone. Dr. Horn also felt he would have a good result as a 1st-time patient.
I remember not having any contact with the patient for 3-4 weeks following the procedure although I did try to get in touch.

The first time there was contact it was too late to do much about the issue, which was explained to me at the time (and shown to me in photos) to be two small lumps of PCL in the Foreskin region.

In summary, I think a new patient to dermal fillers faces an unacceptably high chance of a poor outcome. An 'experienced' patient has such a small chance of a poor outcome that we are willing to continue offering the product.

I have not seen any video of this and this was not an issue I was aware of. The issue I was aware of was two lumps of filler in the Foreskin region which would have been quite simple to remove with a minor surgery using local anaesthetic.

It would be good to see a video what the patient is saying, or some photos.
I have the anonymous photos (nothing that can clearly identify the patient) of the two small lumps of filler in the Foreskin from this case.

I know that we could have made a very small incision and removed this Ellanse under local anaesthetic.
We offered to remove these lumps for free but the patient said he did not want a scar.
Dr Horn told him the scar would be very fine and would fade away to nothing within 12 months.

The patient wanted to be refunded and did not want the lumps removed.

To my knowledge this is the worst Ellanse result we have had since 2017.
However, Dr Kimilu in Manchester recently told me he has a small issue with Ellanse in a case I have not seen photos of.

Some might think well those lumps are small and could be quite easy to remove.
Even though the lumps in the Foreskin might be quite small, I can imagine it would have been quite irritating for the patient, and unsightly, especially when folding over the Erect penis as the patient does in the attached photos.

Machinations wrote: It worked out ok-ish in the end. I still have an unsightly bump but some more filler made it look more natural. I did find Androfil very difficult to deal with and not sympathetic to problems at all

Can I ask where you had the additional filler? Was it HA?
I remember spending a lot of time on this case.
I think we offered to remove the lumps without charge, and we also gave you a refund.

John1982 wrote: I feel exactly the same about our options in the UK. Dr Horn’s manner is exactly what you don’t want when dealing with such a delicate emotional and physical situation.

Dr James Kimilu of Androfill. His website claims he has done 11,970 procedures? Its also stated around 13,000 not so long ago!? So I don’t know whats going on there. Would that make him the most experienced in the world? Does not seem right again!

I’m going to start looking at Moorgate. However Skeptical seems reluctant to connect with them, even tho Francis from Androfill has said himself they have drastically improved. We really need other option’s in the UK because its quite clear that patients are not confident in Dr Horn’s manner.

Regardless of whether Dr Horn is experienced, other things like being on time, making the patient feel at ease and feeling taken care of of its also very important. Clearly he doesn’t do this.

John1982 wrote: I feel exactly the same about our options in the UK. Dr Horn’s manner is exactly what you don’t want when dealing with such a delicate emotional and physical situation.

Dr James Kimilu of Androfill. His website claims he has done 11,970 procedures? Its also stated around 13,000 not so long ago!? So I don’t know whats going on there. Would that make him the most experienced in the world? Does not seem right again!

I’m going to start looking at Moorgate. However Skeptical seems reluctant to connect with them, even tho Francis from Androfill has said himself they have drastically improved. We really need other option’s in the UK because its quite clear that patients are not confident in Dr Horn’s manner.

Regardless of whether Dr Horn is experienced, other things like being on time, making the patient feel at ease and feeling taken care of of its also very important. Clearly he doesn’t do this.

Dr Kimilu has performed 450 to 500 procedures through Androfill, but very few Ellanse procedures. I understood he was not doing Ellanse at all.

Regarding Moorgate.
The firm originally opened my eyes to how bad the industry was, however in the past 2 years, I have heard nothing bad about MG and have had a number of patients tell me that MG is a 'reformed' company.

Perhaps the marketing is still a little cheesy.
"The Moorgate Mega Penis package improves penis length & Girth while the Moorgate Max Girth package provides an extra 2 . 5 inches of increase to your penis length and a whopping 6cm extra Girth! Improve your confidence & improve your sexual performance as a result.
Moorgate’s new Supreme penis enlargement packages mean you can have an even bigger and better-looking penis. You simply choose your ideal package (no pun intended) and then our amazing Urology surgeons do the rest."

In regard to Dr. Horn often delaying patients and not being chatty (to the point of being slightly caustic, I am not sure what can be done to make him more friendly, he is introverted and this goes with many old-school surgeons.
I wonder whether answering very basic questions every day "can I still father children after HA", "how many times has this procedure caused the penis to drop off" casues him some irritation. There is some authenticity in his lack of charm. Regardless of this headwind so far the good results make up for the timekeeping issues and lack of EQ.

Dr. Horn has the technical ability to deliver results that have the lowest rates of rework and complication among any of the doctors I am aware of when dealing with HA. I talk to many doctors about their experiences offering HA and I was surprised to find for example that patients are routinely told they should expect to come in 2 or 3 times following the initial HA treatment for further filler to correct asymmetry. It is perhaps 1 in 15 to 20 cases that need such a follow-up corrective treatment at Androfill with Dr. Horn.

Androfill wrote: We see 2 to 4 Ellanse patients per week, almost all are not from PhalloBoards but are rather ex-HA patients enquiring about a longer-lasting filler.

For perhaps 3 months 2019 we were injecting 1st-time patients with Ellanse.
Giving Ellanse to 1st-time patients was a mistake because the odds of a negative outcome are higher if we have not first seen how the penis responds to a reversible filler.
Ideally, we should check with a trial run HA procedure that:
- The patient has a sound state of mind (are they able to follow instructions, are they going to have sex too soon and make a mess of it, are they going to get exceptional swelling and suffer some panic attack and make a mess of it).
- The patient's anatomy. Are they prone to filler migration into the Foreskin region, or some loose pocket of tissue. Do they have areas with tighter bands of tissue. Are there other aspects of their anatomy which make them a poor candidate for dermal fillers generally. We should find this out with Hyaluronic first, so that if there is an issue we can dissolve it away. Not all potential issues can be predicted in advance through examination of the penis.

I have not written down the names of every patient that has had Ellanse. That said, I do know roughly how many we have had in total, and I know every problem case.
I have seen this problem Machinations, and another one from Dr James Kimilu.

The majority, or even vast majority of Ellanse results are good or even excellent. The patients like the firmness more than anything. The durability of the product is secondary in my mind.

If I thought we couldn't do Ellanse with nearly 0 complications, we would simply not do it, we would pull the product.

Veterans of the forum will probably remember how reluctant we were to offer it in the start. The accusation was that we were trying to scare people off taking Ellanse because the longer-lasting product would hurt recurring HA sales.

Put simply, we can't tolerate more than 1 complication with something serious like Ellanse per year. It is financially and emotionally exhausting for the patient and the last thing we wish to have happen.

A rough estimation of complication rates.

For a new patient with no prior history of dermal fillers, the chance of a minor complication (aesthetics) is around 1 in 5 with Ellanse.
This is far too high for us, and this is why we turn away 1st-time Dermal Filler patients wanting Ellanse.

In a patient who has experienced Dermal Filler to the penis before and who we see is emotionally stable and able to follow instructions, and has demonstrated the ability to mould HA well and has no anatomical quirks the chance of an issue is around 1 in 40 or 2.5%. (assuming that there is not some unrealistically high expectation of laser-guided perfection or dysmorphia present).

The best thing a patient can do is to stay in close contact with me over Whatsapp, email or phone. I have stayed up until the early hours helping Ellanse patients iron out little issues - that isn't purely altruism, it is also self-interest... I don't want any complications and an hour spent after midnight might save me 20 hours dealing with an issue later on.

I remember this case well. I remember thinking that this patient sounded very reasonable over the phone. Dr. Horn also felt he would have a good result as a 1st-time patient.
I remember not having any contact with the patient for 3-4 weeks following the procedure although I did try to get in touch.

The first time there was contact it was too late to do much about the issue, which was explained to me at the time (and shown to me in photos) to be two small lumps of PCL in the Foreskin region.

In summary, I think a new patient to dermal fillers faces an unacceptably high chance of a poor outcome. An 'experienced' patient has such a small chance of a poor outcome that we are willing to continue offering the product.

Francis I’m really disappointed to read this message and subsequent ones you sent after. I’ll respond to all of them in this message.

For clarity my procedures were 8 months apart both in 2020 so I know it’s incorrect that this product was only offered to first time patients for 3 months in 2019

if you read up through this very thread there are contradictions to what you are saying now. Previously in this thread you said that there was no way that I could’ve spotted the lumps forming due to the swelling but now you seem to be implying it was due to lack of contact. Regarding the lack of contact, we did talk in the days following the procedure which you acknowledge in your earlier posts on this thread. Part of the complaint that I had with Androfill was the lack of contact and instruction. There wasn’t any attempt to contact me in the following weeks and this was very dissatisfying once the poor result had come to light (at the time I didnt mind because I didn’t know there was a problem) and something that you apologised for explicitly. Earlier in the thread you acknowledge that we spoke after the procedure but now are saying that I was unavailable when you tried to contact me. This is untrue.

You are also incorrect regarding the situation with the free work and refund. I did not have to pay for the Kenalog injections, but I had to pay for the subsequent filler to even out the bumps. This answers your question of who did the extra filler… It was also Androfill. This was 8 months after the initial injection. I did not get a refund for the initial work or later filler. Despite you telling me that I wouldn’t have to pay for additional filler to smooth out the bumps, on the day I was charged and then despite chasing have not received a response since regarding a refund for any of the work. I have the message correspondence and bank statements to back this up.

The photos you have posted in the link are photos I have taken and as such are my property. I am very very privacy conscious and did not give you permission to post these. In my opinion this is very poor practice for customer privacy. Furthermore the fact that you have said that my penis is Erect in the bent photo makes it seem like you are trying to say that this is the reason why the filler is visible. My penis definitely is not Erect in that photo and that is what the filler looks like when Flaccid.

If you read through my earlier posts on this subject I was very careful not to give an unfair review of Androfill. Despite it being a very poor result and customer experience I waited until the whole situation had been seen through and even then did not come on this forum to mention in the lack of refund. Your response here really is very disappointing and given the patience and understanding I displayed towards you through all of this I’m really surprised to read it.

Machinations wrote:

Androfill wrote: We see 2 to 4 Ellanse patients per week, almost all are not from PhalloBoards but are rather ex-HA patients enquiring about a longer-lasting filler.

For perhaps 3 months 2019 we were injecting 1st-time patients with Ellanse.
Giving Ellanse to 1st-time patients was a mistake because the odds of a negative outcome are higher if we have not first seen how the penis responds to a reversible filler.
Ideally, we should check with a trial run HA procedure that:
- The patient has a sound state of mind (are they able to follow instructions, are they going to have sex too soon and make a mess of it, are they going to get exceptional swelling and suffer some panic attack and make a mess of it).
- The patient's anatomy. Are they prone to filler migration into the Foreskin region, or some loose pocket of tissue. Do they have areas with tighter bands of tissue. Are there other aspects of their anatomy which make them a poor candidate for dermal fillers generally. We should find this out with Hyaluronic first, so that if there is an issue we can dissolve it away. Not all potential issues can be predicted in advance through examination of the penis.

I have not written down the names of every patient that has had Ellanse. That said, I do know roughly how many we have had in total, and I know every problem case.
I have seen this problem Machinations, and another one from Dr James Kimilu.

The majority, or even vast majority of Ellanse results are good or even excellent. The patients like the firmness more than anything. The durability of the product is secondary in my mind.

If I thought we couldn't do Ellanse with nearly 0 complications, we would simply not do it, we would pull the product.

Veterans of the forum will probably remember how reluctant we were to offer it in the start. The accusation was that we were trying to scare people off taking Ellanse because the longer-lasting product would hurt recurring HA sales.

Put simply, we can't tolerate more than 1 complication with something serious like Ellanse per year. It is financially and emotionally exhausting for the patient and the last thing we wish to have happen.

A rough estimation of complication rates.

For a new patient with no prior history of dermal fillers, the chance of a minor complication (aesthetics) is around 1 in 5 with Ellanse.
This is far too high for us, and this is why we turn away 1st-time Dermal Filler patients wanting Ellanse.

In a patient who has experienced Dermal Filler to the penis before and who we see is emotionally stable and able to follow instructions, and has demonstrated the ability to mould HA well and has no anatomical quirks the chance of an issue is around 1 in 40 or 2.5%. (assuming that there is not some unrealistically high expectation of laser-guided perfection or dysmorphia present).

The best thing a patient can do is to stay in close contact with me over Whatsapp, email or phone. I have stayed up until the early hours helping Ellanse patients iron out little issues - that isn't purely altruism, it is also self-interest... I don't want any complications and an hour spent after midnight might save me 20 hours dealing with an issue later on.

I remember this case well. I remember thinking that this patient sounded very reasonable over the phone. Dr. Horn also felt he would have a good result as a 1st-time patient.
I remember not having any contact with the patient for 3-4 weeks following the procedure although I did try to get in touch.

The first time there was contact it was too late to do much about the issue, which was explained to me at the time (and shown to me in photos) to be two small lumps of PCL in the Foreskin region.

In summary, I think a new patient to dermal fillers faces an unacceptably high chance of a poor outcome. An 'experienced' patient has such a small chance of a poor outcome that we are willing to continue offering the product.

Francis I’m really disappointed to read this message and subsequent ones you sent after. I’ll respond to all of them in this message.

For clarity my procedures were 8 months apart both in 2020 so I know it’s incorrect that this product was only offered to first time patients for 3 months in 2019

if you read up through this very thread there are contradictions to what you are saying now. Previously in this thread you said that there was no way that I could’ve spotted the lumps forming due to the swelling but now you seem to be implying it was due to lack of contact. Regarding the lack of contact, we did talk in the days following the procedure which you acknowledge in your earlier posts on this thread. Part of the complaint that I had with Androfill was the lack of contact and instruction. There wasn’t any attempt to contact me in the following weeks and this was very dissatisfying once the poor result had come to light (at the time I didnt mind because I didn’t know there was a problem) and something that you apologised for explicitly. Earlier in the thread you acknowledge that we spoke after the procedure but now are saying that I was unavailable when you tried to contact me. This is untrue.

You are also incorrect regarding the situation with the free work and refund. I did not have to pay for the Kenalog injections, but I had to pay for the subsequent filler to even out the bumps. This answers your question of who did the extra filler… It was also Androfill. This was 8 months after the initial injection. I did not get a refund for the initial work or later filler. Despite you telling me that I wouldn’t have to pay for additional filler to smooth out the bumps, on the day I was charged and then despite chasing have not received a response since regarding a refund for any of the work. I have the message correspondence and bank statements to back this up.

The photos you have posted in the link are photos I have taken and as such are my property. I am very very privacy conscious and did not give you permission to post these. In my opinion this is very poor practice for customer privacy. Furthermore the fact that you have said that my penis is Erect in the bent photo makes it seem like you are trying to say that this is the reason why the filler is visible. My penis definitely is not Erect in that photo and that is what the filler looks like when Flaccid.

If you read through my earlier posts on this subject I was very careful not to give an unfair review of Androfill. Despite it being a very poor result and customer experience I waited until the whole situation had been seen through and even then did not come on this forum to mention in the lack of refund. Your response here really is very disappointing and given the patience and understanding I displayed towards you through all of this I’m really surprised to read it.

Hello,

It is nearly 3 years since the Ellanse was injected, is there any of the Ellanse left?

I need to look further into the records, would you please send me a quick message by text or Whatsapp?

Do you mind if I publish all the interactions by text and email (anonymized but otherwise unredacted)?
It will make clear exactly what happened and how you have been looked after.

When you are making a claim about a poor outcome it is better to have photos or videos to show the result.
The photo we provided by link is zoomed right in on the problem, it is impossible to identify you and is completely anonymous.
As you don't want the photo of the result online I have removed the link.

Are you able to publish your own photos or videos? The images in the link show two quite minor lumps which Dr. Horn offered to remove without charge.

The photos also help other users to know the possible risks of Ellanse.

I believe Francis is offering a very fair proposition here. After reviewing your post history, I'm troubled to see that I didn't pick up on the fact that you haven't provided any photos (correct me if I missed it) related to your grievances, while simultaneously drafting numerous posts lambasting Androfill.

Men post before & after content here regularly and voluntarily, however, those who make strong allegations or criticisms really ought to furnish their side of the story by way of photo or video evidence, and this has generally been a policy of mine.

Francis's willingness to be this transparent with all the exchanges made between you two (anonymized while unredacted) should be godsend if you do believe your side of the story is legitimate and/or reasonable. This way we can lock the topic altogether, and allow the forum to be the judge of the matter and move on.

Otherwise, I'm not going to sit idly by and see a community Sponsor (who has had generally positive reviews over many years) feel the need to defend themselves against those who are not willing to substantiate their claims. This is an information-exchange, not a rumor mill. I trust you understand the gravity of my sentiments and how important it is that you strongly consider the proposition put forward.

And I want to make clear, I'm not suggesting that you've been dishonest, rather, I believe it's only fair and appropriate that we get both sides of the story in its entirety if your position is to challenge the quality of customer service and medical care you received. If it turns out Androfill dropped the ball, then it would be in my best interest to consult with them on ways to improve customer-interaction. It is in my best interest that my readership are provided world-class options and so I take complaints very seriously.