TOPIC: Infections, Complications, Risks of PMMA?

@EQ,
Thanks a lot for your 3 minutes research , I thought you still remember what was my Q. is about :- (( Any study about the Migration of the beads of the Newplastic or at least other products to a DISTANT ORGAN in human ---> distant organ disease or failure )), our argument was about the possibilty of the danger (e.g. migration) of the small beads migrating to distant organ, do you remember that EQ ??
In regards the 3 points you have mentioned above :-
1- 'The Polymethylmethacrylate Effects on Auricle Conchal Cartilage: Report of 21 Cases' by Caldellas et al
Is that a distant organ e.g. liver or lung ??? it is only a local (at the same area of injection) complication ???
Let us say this paper is 100% correct , the Q. is: Is this local complication due to the presence of small beads (e.g. in Newplastic) ?? If that is true why did FDA give the approval for Artefill i.e. it is safe ?? In Artefill there is <1% of the beads are smaller than 20 micron , I know it is low (<1%) but i.e. Artefill is not 100% pure, so is there any distant fatal organ damage after Artefill injection in USA, that will be a Q. for Dr. Cohen ( he will not answer me but of course we know his answer anyway).
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19787393
2- 'Extensive facial necrosis after infiltration of polymethylmethacrylate' de Castro et al
I like that one , are you saying that the picture shown above is due to the product (e.g. Newplastic) ??? So do you mean if the same doctor used Arefill instead of (the Brazilian\'s product) wont happen this complication ???
First of all this complication can occur from injecting any product of PMMA directly into an artery ( in this picture is due to injecting PMMA into one of the branches of the Facial artery) which will occlude the artery---> necrosis .
So it is due to the TECHNIQUE of the doctor esp. by using sharp needle, and not due to the product per se .
Believe me EQ if you decided to have Artefill for chin augmentation (as you have mentioned before fft or Artefill) be careful esp. if your doctor use a sharp needle , he has to move it back and forth to avoid injecting the beads into your artery, otherwise the chance of having the same complication as in the picture is high.
BTW that is not the answer of our Q. it is not talking about migration of the beads to distant organ it is about the bad technique of the doctor by injecting the beads into an artery, as I said it can happen with Artefill also , correct me if I am wrong ?? i.e. the BEST product with a bad doctor ---> Disaster .
That was the opinion of Dr.Cohen ((the technique and not the product per se)).
So do you regard this case as a distant organ disease (e.g. liver) ??

3- 'Complications after polymethylmethacrylate injections: report of 32 cases' by. Salles et al
Again it is not a distant organ disease ?
5 cases tissue necrosis (acute complication) due to technique.10 cases granuloma (subacute complication) leave it or Kenalog injection.10 cases chronic inflammatory reaction in the same area were it is injected.Again they mentioned 10 cases chronic inflammatory reaction which is the same as above complication but in the lips (lymphedema).1 case of infection.
He mentioned one of the person who did the injection was not a doctor , I wonder which one was his patient ??
So are these the answer of our Q. in regard the possibility of small beads migration and the chance of distant organ complication ???

@smartman - You are all over the map, I am done with this. Good Luck!

@eq - (( @smartman - You are all over the map, I am done with this. Good Luck! ))
Why have you said that?? The most important topic we have discussed before was:-
Was there any patient in the literature complaining of a serious complication (e.g. DISTANT ORGAN) from Newplastic which can be due to migration of the SMALL beads , correct ???
These studies you have mentioned above were NOT the answer for that Q. , so if you think it was the answer , I am sorry you might be right.
But the most important thing I have found is the presence of <1% of smaller beads in Artefill , if that is true , and as we were discussing before that the Newplastic has small beads too , so why did the FDA give the approval for Artefill in 2006 ??
So it is either the FDA has missed that serious complication of the possibility of migration of the small beads ---> liver or lung failure . It will be a big mistake if it was true .
Or they did know about the presence of <1% of small beads (< 20 micron) in Artefill , but they were 100% sure there will be no distant organ complication from these small beads (i.e. small beads doesn\'t cause any serious complication).
So eqstudent I dont know who is all over the map ?? I will let the others to decide about that . May be the 3 minutes were too short for the research.
Would you still do the chin augmentation with Artefill by your doctor ??

@smartman ' arguing against small particle migration is as silly as you arguing that one can't have an infection because the millions of macrophages surrounding the PMMA will any infection. Anyone with a basic understanding of biology will get these issues.The fact that small PMMA particles can migrate has already been answered, see post phalloboards.websitetoolbox.com/post/sho...286&postcount=110The fact that particles moving into the lymphatic or venous system can cause very serious issues or death has been established. See the de Castro paper and the articles about the Argentine beauty queen who died from pulmonary embolism in her lungs following injection of PMMA in her butt.I will not spend any more time discussing basic biology principles. The real takeaway from the Caldellas study on Newplastic is that the results were so alarming that that Artefill felt compelled to include commentary stating that those results were for Newplastic and should not be extended to Artefill. The two local doctors who are very big Artefill supporters told me that if the Caldellas study was on Artefill they would immediately stop using it and that in their opinion the FDA would recall and disapprove Artefill!I will not be using Artefill for chin augmentation.

@eq,


1-
(( @smartman ' arguing against small particle migration is as silly as you arguing that one can't have an infection because the millions of macrophages surrounding the PMMA will any infection. Anyone with a basic understanding of biology will get these issues.))
I am just trying to understand the whole thing much better may be the reason is: I dont have a basic understanding of biology like you have, so could you explain (or may be the two local doctors in your area) Why we dont need antibiotic after Artefill injection ??? even after the second session ( that was the answer of Dr.Cohen and Lemperle , may be these two persons have no basic understanding of biology like me ?? ).
Do your two local doctors advice an antibiotic after Artefill ??
We could ask Artefill\'s company about the need of an antibiotic.


2-
You have mentioned (( A key requirement for FDA approval was that Artefill could not contain spheres smaller than 20 microns which were shown to be eaten by marcophages and in the animal studies found in migrated to lymph nodes and lungs!)).

But in the study (I have mentioned before) states

Uh this is really important question so please keep your egos away so it would be easier to read and understand?
It\'s very very important to be critical as possible like eqstudent is.I am basically 50/50 should I go for the procedure at 10% on august or not.Does these serious long-term complications arise altho the amount injected to penis is small compared to facial procedures?
I am really at basic level on biology understanding when evaluating the risks - but still I better evaluate very well.I don\'t want my penis to turn black death when I\'m 30-40 yo.
Maybe one procedure at 10% is not so risky? .. Hmm.. I still could cancel my procedure time.. hard decision.

is this page really messed up for anyone else? i have several posts appearing on top of one another, so you can\'t really read them, with the last one extending way past the \"quick reply\" dialogue box that\'s usually at the bottom. I\'m using a Mac...just wanted to see if I\'m the only one with this issue?

Jec wrote: ...Does these serious long-term complications arise altho the amount injected to penis is small compared to facial procedures?...

The amount injected into the penis is 10 times more by volume than typically injected into the face. No one knows how this changes the risks.

@ttar2380 - for me, post #20 only partially show up the rest of the page is fine.

Re: The horror picture portraying a disfigured face.

It would seem down to poor technique; I read in the article:

\" ... the PMMA microspheres were injected very near branches of the ophthalmic artery, which caused embolism in the vassel.2 We also know of complications also associated with the use of an autologous graft when the injection is carried out in the glabellar region.6
In this report, the complication mechanism was similar. PMMA was injected in the nasogenian groove, or directly into the right facial artery, or very near it. There was arterial embolism: right angular artery, right superior and inferior labial coronal arteries\".

Not the product is to blame then, if we take the excerpt literally, but rather the location where it was injected.

Thoughts?

P.S.
I truly and deeply think that challenging info/doc/research documents are absolutely crucial for our long journey to a thorough assessment of PMMA. Thank you eqstudent for your contributions. Please, keep it up.

At the same time I did resent your patronizing attitude when replying to smartman. He has brought wealth of technical info to this forum on top of sharing his long-term experience with us: both extremely valuable assets.
I personally would welcome more imperturbability when objecting to points of view of a fellow forum brother. Rest assured that I still would avidily read your inputs. We are all here to learn and contribute. Btw, I confess, I do ignore the basic facts of biology, so I am happy to know more.

Final question: you \"will not be using Artefill for chin augmentation\" ... would you use Artefill for penis Girth augmentation?

@Jec You indicated that you are 50/50. Perhaps you want to reschedule so that you can do more research and feel more comfortable with your decision, whether it\'s to go forward or not go forward. It\'s important to research and understand all potential risks before proceeding, if you do indeed decide to proceed.

@ttar: Is the problem still happening? I am not experiencing similar issues. Is it localized to this thread, or do other threads have that appearance as well?
@eq Is post 20 still only partially showing up? I am not having any problems.

@skatezy - I cannot see most of post #20. Issues with the thread?

Hm, I\'ll pass word along that multiple people are having issues.

The Rt. facial necrosis in the picture is due to a bad technique (the doctor has injected pmma into an artery (branches of the facial artery)) esp. if the doctor used a sharp needle for the injection, they usually advice in pmma injection is to use a blunt cannula or if the doctor used a sharp needle he shouldn\'t inject the pmma at rest he should move the needle back & forth and the injection should be done during the movement to avoid any direct injection of pmma into an artery.
It has nothing to do with the amount of pmma it is due to the technique e.g. :-
A small volume of pmma injected by a sharp needle into an artery ----> a chance of necrosis.
A large volume of pmma injected by a blunt cannula and not into an artery--> no necrosis.
A necrosis of a tissue from an arterial embolism is not a long term complication it is an acute short term complication hours after the injection.
But if the injection was into a vein ---> possibility of pulmonary embolism
BTW the volume injected in the butt (around 500 cc) is 10 times more by volume than typically injected in the penis (around 50 cc in total) and I have never read any report of skin or tissue necrosis of the butt.
I agree with supa that there are other products beside pmma if you injected them in an artery---> embolism---> serious complication.
e.g. injecting steroid into the inferior turbinate (inside the nose) (used to be one of the treatment for chronic nasal block (allergic or vasomotor rhinitis)) can cause blindness
archopht.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/97/1/79
My doctor in Brazil used a micro-cannula during the injection of Metacrill but in some area of my penis he wanted to use a sharp needle (back & forth technique) but I refused even he told me he has a long experience of using a sharp needle. So I am sure some brazilian doctors still sometimes used a sharp needle beside the micro-cannula (so it is not a 100% a bioplasty technique (a blunt micro-cannula) what Dr.Almir Nacul has advised).
So the technique of the doctor is most important to avoid any serious complication and not the product per se.